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18 Apr 2013 - 12:51101189
really interesting topic! And one that has been going on for a couple of years now....
(we got the same issue in germany)
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THAT'S WHAT YOU CAN DO!

1.
To start with, I think the best way is to have the courage to ACT when it happens.
You know, don't look away. Do something about it and learn/practice on how to prevent
it from happening. Sometimes you are so distracted on conventions (by so many things!!~ )
that you might not really notice it right away. But then don't shut up about it!

2.
It might sound a bit strange to say that...
...BUT try to be confident in what you do. Look after yourself.
If you feel uncomfortable in a certain situation just SAY it ,
instead of THINKING it only in your head. No-one will be mad at you for doing so.
Instead maybe even say: "Oh that's what I just thought!"

3.
I want to point out that sadly the "weak" are more likely to be attacked by PPL like this.
I don't want to offend anyone by saying this BUT it really is more likely to be the case...
...So what can you do about that?
Become strong. Srsly...Thus, I don't mean to become a muscle head somethin~~~ haha ♥..really not...

What I mean is simply become brave, honest with yourself, aware of your surroundings, confident in what you are and what you do.


4
If it doesn't happen to you, be happy.
But if you see it happen to other PPL (be it in public or on events..) here also...
don't look away.
Step in, do something about it - and if you lack the courage,
it may be talking to the victims afterwards.
Be a witness.

5
If it happened to you...don't let yourself down because of it. You are as precious and valuable as you were before.
Bear in mind that YOU are unique!
And valuable. Stand up.
Since it happened to you, YOU are the one who understands OTHERS that experienced similar things the most...
Thus, You are not alone ♥

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I've got a couple of friends who encountered stuff like that, I stepped in whenever I saw it happen. (especially when wannabe gangster ;D try to be rude to cosplayer...bwuahaha....*LOL*) yeah.~
There are a lot of commercials especially on MTV and stuff about ABUSE at the moment. It's a big issue in general. Not only on conventions and in the cosplay scene.

that's all I want to say about this ♥
It helped my homies. Be strong, don't look away ♥

KC


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18 Apr 2013 - 13:03101190
Objectifying a person is essentially removing the human qualities of them (their emotions, free will, opinions, thoughts, etc) and just viewing them as something that can give you pleasure/that you can use. In a nutshell, it's pretty much the thought of "I don't care how this person feels about it, I'm gonna make it know that I'm fantasizing about getting with him/her/it"

Sexual objectification can range from something like eyeing a person up because they're pretty to raping/kidnapping them.

Yaoi fans are some of the worst, imo. Yeah, guys make comments and do things they shouldn't, but they know they shouldn't they're just risking it. Yaoi fans normally have the opinion that they can do/say what they like cause the same rules don't apply, apparently. Also, because yaoi fans are normally fairly young girls, you can look like the badguy for telling them off and security in places are less likely to do something about them.

Men touching/sexualising women is taken a lot more seriously than women touching/sexualising men. Young 'uns touching an adult, of any description, the adult normally gets the blame.

Whilst I agree with the general idea of this, that the costume choice does not mean you can do whatever to the cosplayer, people need to remember that there will always be people who objectify others. If you're in a sexy or revealing outfit, it's best to go to a convention or whatever with the mind set that you're gonna be hit on in some description, at the very least. It shouldn't be that way, I agree, but frankly as long as people are objectified in current media, there's not a damn thing that can be done about it.


That's my penny's worth.

EDIT: Also to add; yeah, the biggest thing is to stand up for yourself and others in that situation. It'll change, cause stuff like that does, it just won't be a complete change. Especially because, whilst you can stand up for yourself in public, there is nothing you can do about photos that get online.


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Ayacon Plans

Last edited by NixieThePixie (18 Apr 2013 - 13:06)
18 Apr 2013 - 13:24101191
Quote:

people need to remember that there will always be people who objectify others. If you're in a sexy or revealing outfit, it's best to go to a convention or whatever with the mind set that you're gonna be hit on in some description, at the very least.


I so agree with that ♥ gosh~

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There's always a way. I mean even with photos online.
never give up. If there seems to be no-way-out just work on making your own way possible.
That's the positive / idealistic solution♥


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18 Apr 2013 - 13:26101192
Quote NixieThePixie:
Yaoi fans are some of the worst, imo. Yeah, guys make comments and do things they shouldn't, but they know they shouldn't they're just risking it. Yaoi fans normally have the opinion that they can do/say what they like cause the same rules don't apply, apparently. Also, because yaoi fans are normally fairly young girls, you can look like the badguy for telling them off and security in places are less likely to do something about them.


Whilst I agree that there definitely is a problem with some yaoi fans, particularly the younger ones, I really don't think this is the "normal" opinion.

There is definitely a culture of not taking it seriously when it is a man being harassed. This kind of plays in to sexism and gender stereotypes (the idea that a man ought to be flattered rather than threatened when a woman shows him unwanted attention). I still wouldn't say it was as common but that doesn't mean its not important.


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18 Apr 2013 - 14:04101196
Quote NixieThePixie:
Yaoi fans are some of the worst, imo. Yeah, guys make comments and do things they shouldn't, but they know they shouldn't they're just risking it. Yaoi fans normally have the opinion that they can do/say what they like cause the same rules don't apply, apparently. Also, because yaoi fans are normally fairly young girls, you can look like the badguy for telling them off and security in places are less likely to do something about them.


True that. They annoying thing is that some people pander to them. Which in course encourages this kind of behaviour.

I think it would be fun to see what would happen if some were dropped in the middle of Soho or Kemp Town.


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18 Apr 2013 - 14:05101197
Quote NixieThePixie:
people need to remember that there will always be people who objectify others. If you're in a sexy or revealing outfit, it's best to go to a convention or whatever with the mind set that you're gonna be hit on in some description, at the very least.


Can I offer a re-worded variant?

If you wear a sexy/revealing costume, assume there there will be creeps who see you as a target, and prepare for it.

And by that I mean, take a friend/spotter with you, be willing to call creeps out on their behaviour, know where the event helpdesk is, etc. Whatever level of response you are comfortable with .


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18 Apr 2013 - 19:09101215
PandoraCaitiff is right, there should be no "prepare for being touched and comments made your way" but "prepare to call out the people doing it, whatever your costume".

You can, if you feel it'll do you any good, blame "the media" or "media companies" for "objectifying X" but the point of this is it is real people at a real convention that are being physically and verbally harassed.

It shouldn't matter what they wear, and as pointed out before people in "non-sexy" costumes have the same issues and what do you determine is sexy in the first place?

I mean you can't just say "I know it when I see it", and therefore the point is you should always be prepared to call out the people doing the abuse also never be in a mind set where it should be apparent it'll happen (and it seems to be happening to a fair amount of people) therefore we must keep it that way.

(I realise this is probably what you meant but it needs properly repeating).



Last edited by Andrew Armstrong (18 Apr 2013 - 21:54)
18 Apr 2013 - 22:53101232
Quote PandoraCaitiff:
Quote NixieThePixie:
people need to remember that there will always be people who objectify others. If you're in a sexy or revealing outfit, it's best to go to a convention or whatever with the mind set that you're gonna be hit on in some description, at the very least.


Can I offer a re-worded variant?

If you wear a sexy/revealing costume, assume there there will be creeps who see you as a target, and prepare for it.

And by that I mean, take a friend/spotter with you, be willing to call creeps out on their behaviour, know where the event helpdesk is, etc. Whatever level of response you are comfortable with .


Completely agree with this! If you wear sexy clothing you know you might get certain people's attention so being a little more 'prepared' is logical, I just wish we didn't have to be tactical like this it totally puts me off wearing anything slightly sexy at all lol!!!
As for the objectification thing, I agree with what everyone has been saying, it's just the way people see other humans with a lack of compassion for their feelings/emotions/thoughts etc. Seeing them as an 'object' to be used and not taking into consideration that they are human and have a personally/mind of their own.


18 Apr 2013 - 23:28101237
Quote Afireinsidegirl:
I just wish we didn't have to be tactical like this it totally puts me off wearing anything slightly sexy at all lol!!!.


Sun Tzu said something about how knowing yourself as well as your enemey would lead to victory. If you know what they will hassle you for, you can prepare.

I'm a crossplayer, and I'm overweight, so I assume most hassle will be targetted at these. As a result I have a few witty comebacks memorised for the most common insults.


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19 Apr 2013 - 22:01101275
Quote PandoraCaitiff:
Quote Afireinsidegirl:
I just wish we didn't have to be tactical like this it totally puts me off wearing anything slightly sexy at all lol!!!.


Sun Tzu said something about how knowing yourself as well as your enemey would lead to victory. If you know what they will hassle you for, you can prepare.

I'm a crossplayer, and I'm overweight, so I assume most hassle will be targetted at these. As a result I have a few witty comebacks memorised for the most common insults.

I'm glad that you seem to have a 'take it in my stride' type of attitude but people really should 'grow up' out of saying rude things over cross-playing and people's bodies ¬___¬


19 Apr 2013 - 23:27101283
Quote Afireinsidegirl:
I'm glad that you seem to have a 'take it in my stride' type of attitude but people really should 'grow up' out of saying rude things over cross-playing and people's bodies ¬___¬


Don't get me wrong, it still hurts to get rude comments. But if I can deny them the satisfaction of seeing me mad or upset - or better yet, make them look stupid in front of witnesses - they might think twice next time. And that helps me, and other cosplayers!


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20 Apr 2013 - 16:08101308
Ok thanks for yor explanations guys. That helps me to understand now what is meant by objectification. I personally think a better word could have been chosen to describe this kind of behaviour. As I see it we are talking about a person being de-valued by others. Any kind of de-valueing is horrible and wrong. We should all be treated with equal respect regardless of gender, costume, size, add any other label here... The world would be a much nicer place.
But if we come across bad behaviour we should report it to the Expo staff / stewards. They can make the call on what appropriate action. In some cases they reserve the right to throw someone out of the Expo and right off the show premesis. Something like a girl being groped - that is sexual assault! - I think they would get security and police involved. The worse thing to do is not report this kind of stuff, cuz that allows them to carry on doing the same thing to other people.


20 Apr 2013 - 17:15101310
Quote Ranma1-2:
Ok thanks for yor explanations guys. That helps me to understand now what is meant by objectification. I personally think a better word could have been chosen to describe this kind of behaviour. As I see it we are talking about a person being de-valued by others. Any kind of de-valueing is horrible and wrong. We should all be treated with equal respect regardless of gender, costume, size, add any other label here... The world would be a much nicer place.
But if we come across bad behaviour we should report it to the Expo staff / stewards. They can make the call on what appropriate action. In some cases they reserve the right to throw someone out of the Expo and right off the show premesis. Something like a girl being groped - that is sexual assault! - I think they would get security and police involved. The worse thing to do is not report this kind of stuff, cuz that allows them to carry on doing the same thing to other people.


I completely agree that police/expo security etc should be involved and it should all be taken as a serious incident. I do think that preventative measures are a good call too though, I'd like to see this type of behaviour prevented as much as poss so that people don't have to go through it


22 Apr 2013 - 08:34101374
Does anyone follow 16-Bit Sirens on Facebook?

They've reposted two brilliant posters by Black Nobo

Skimpy costume - http://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/422033_640116116003041_1290628081_n.png

Cleavage - http://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/936937_640116109336375_1204978748_n.png


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Last edited by PandoraCaitiff (22 Apr 2013 - 08:35) Reason: Broken link
22 Apr 2013 - 10:08101376
Quote PandoraCaitiff:
Does anyone follow 16-Bit Sirens on Facebook?

They've reposted two brilliant posters by Black Nobo

Skimpy costume - http://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/422033_640116116003041_1290628081_n.png

Cleavage - http://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/936937_640116109336375_1204978748_n.png

Wow, brilliant posters. I still agree with earlier comments that having posters like these put up at Expo and the like would be beneficial. It might just give some creeps a reality check.


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~ express yourself ~
22 Apr 2013 - 18:41101400
I think these posters are a start and I'm happy to see them (but I think they could be done better :/) I find the first one too wordy for the message it's getting across, I guess the second one is better for that, it read easily. They need some about armour/fur suits and some about having photos with people and not being a creep!!


23 Apr 2013 - 00:20101423
Second one is quite good, they both are pretty stylised I guess - not quite my cup of tea for getting the message across snappily (the other posters which got the original phrase on them worked well for that).

I guess however they are not meant so much for cons as for just promoting it online, where they work relatively well

I need to put some time into the sticker idea if only for my own concious. I'll see if I can figure out a good font and message on them, but I'll probably just resort to the basic phrase and use a basic typeface (maybe even the type used on those original posters, Stencil).


25 Apr 2013 - 23:20101565
I will admit I haven't read the full topic here but my experiences in the past have been I've had my backside, breasts, legs all groped before at conventions. In the beginning I was shocked, then I started to ask people to politely not to do it again, if they don't follow my advice I will take action.

My theory now is if they think my costume equals consent to touch me, then them touching me inappropriately is consenting for me to break their fingers. Simple as really. I wear costumes and make them because I enjoy it, it brings me out of my shell and means I don't have to be boring old me I get to be someone awesome, I don't do it so I can have pictures take of my ass and breasts or have either of those touched inappropriately. I might get a sticker saying "touch if you dare" with a small disclaimer warning about loss of limbs.


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26 Apr 2013 - 09:39101573
Quote naurarwen:
I will admit I haven't read the full topic here but my experiences in the past have been I've had my backside, breasts, legs all groped before at conventions. In the beginning I was shocked, then I started to ask people to politely not to do it again, if they don't follow my advice I will take action.


Heya!

Yeah, a few of us are able to do that. But sadly there's a lot of people who aren't as assertive; don't know how to handle it; blame themselves for dressing that way; who are scared to tell anyone; or worst of all - reported the behaviour and were ignored by the people in charge. (See any parallels with another serious issue mostly affecting vulnerable women?)

Have a read through the rest of the thread when you get a chance, there's some interesting stuff here


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26 Apr 2013 - 12:01101575
Quote PandoraCaitiff:
Quote naurarwen:
I will admit I haven't read the full topic here but my experiences in the past have been I've had my backside, breasts, legs all groped before at conventions. In the beginning I was shocked, then I started to ask people to politely not to do it again, if they don't follow my advice I will take action.


Heya!

Yeah, a few of us are able to do that. But sadly there's a lot of people who aren't as assertive; don't know how to handle it; blame themselves for dressing that way; who are scared to tell anyone; or worst of all - reported the behaviour and were ignored by the people in charge. (See any parallels with another serious issue mostly affecting vulnerable women?)

Have a read through the rest of the thread when you get a chance, there's some interesting stuff here


Don't get me wrong I used to be one of those people who didn't know how to handle it, blame myself etc. Its hard to know what to do in the situation as it takes you totally by surprise. I had a guy at a Manchester con when I was dressed as Sweet Pea ask for a pic his wife/girlfriend was taking the pic. He ended up putting his hand on my ass and when I cleared my throat he actually squeezed it. I didn't cause any fuss but I politely told him if he didn't want to lose his genitalia and his gf/wife realise what he had done he would remove it post haste. He ended up moving it up to my waist and when he left I actually smiled sweetly. He avoided me for the rest of the con.

If I saw this happening to someone else I'd definitely stand up for them as well. We all need to look out for each other and try and always be aware of our surroundings and last but by no means least never think its your fault. People at cons just think they can get away with murder, we need to show them they can't


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26 Apr 2013 - 12:12101576
Quote naurarwen:
If I saw this happening to someone else I'd definitely stand up for them as well. We all need to look out for each other and try and always be aware of our surroundings and last but by no means least never think its your fault. People at cons just think they can get away with murder, we need to show them they can't


Indeed! Welcome aboard


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26 Apr 2013 - 13:28101578
Quote naurarwen:
Quote PandoraCaitiff:
Quote naurarwen:
I will admit I haven't read the full topic here but my experiences in the past have been I've had my backside, breasts, legs all groped before at conventions. In the beginning I was shocked, then I started to ask people to politely not to do it again, if they don't follow my advice I will take action.


Heya!

Yeah, a few of us are able to do that. But sadly there's a lot of people who aren't as assertive; don't know how to handle it; blame themselves for dressing that way; who are scared to tell anyone; or worst of all - reported the behaviour and were ignored by the people in charge. (See any parallels with another serious issue mostly affecting vulnerable women?)

Have a read through the rest of the thread when you get a chance, there's some interesting stuff here


Don't get me wrong I used to be one of those people who didn't know how to handle it, blame myself etc. Its hard to know what to do in the situation as it takes you totally by surprise. I had a guy at a Manchester con when I was dressed as Sweet Pea ask for a pic his wife/girlfriend was taking the pic. He ended up putting his hand on my ass and when I cleared my throat he actually squeezed it. I didn't cause any fuss but I politely told him if he didn't want to lose his genitalia and his gf/wife realise what he had done he would remove it post haste. He ended up moving it up to my waist and when he left I actually smiled sweetly. He avoided me for the rest of the con.

If I saw this happening to someone else I'd definitely stand up for them as well. We all need to look out for each other and try and always be aware of our surroundings and last but by no means least never think its your fault. People at cons just think they can get away with murder, we need to show them they can't


That guy sounds like a catch! ¬__¬ I would have congratulated his girlfriend/wife for going out with the biggest loser in Britain If I went out with someone who did that I'd punch them once for the girl they'd done it too and once for myself!!


26 Apr 2013 - 21:07101607
Quote Afireinsidegirl:
Quote naurarwen:

That guy sounds like a catch! ¬__¬ I would have congratulated his girlfriend/wife for going out with the biggest loser in Britain If I went out with someone who did that I'd punch them once for the girl they'd done it too and once for myself!!


The thing is he was so subtle about it his wife/gf didn't even notice. I however did. I noticed when I was at EMS last year because of the outfits I was in (Dark Phoenix and Alice Resi Evil red dress) even though I was somewhat on my own as my boyfriend was working on a dealers table I ended up making quite a few new friends and tried to stay with them most of the time, though my boyfriend is quite confident that I can take care of myself I just chose to avoid putting myself into a bad situation. Even when going out for a cigerette I either hung round near the security, went out with new friends or put myself out of the way so I didn't draw attention to myself in my costume. Most of those things I did automatically without even thinking about it.


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27 Apr 2013 - 09:06101622
Not sure if you guys think this story counts but this happened to me at the second con I went to. I was dressed as Italy from Hetalia. This girl came up to and wanted to hug me... I'm generally not the most "huggy" of people but alot of my friends are and I know alot of people at cons are so I don't mind too much so I said sure. What I wasn't aware of was that she was holding some knickers in her hand and instead of hugging me she shouted "Panty hug!" and literally shoved these knickers in my face then went off. I was pretty much left stood there thinking "What the fuck..." I hope they were clean, it all happened pretty quick but I remember being fairly annoyed about it at the time.


28 Apr 2013 - 10:30101669
Quote Cobranose:
Not sure if you guys think this story counts but this happened to me at the second con I went to.


Lets see:
  • Only happened because you were cosplaying
  • Non-consensual
  • Sexualised

Yep. That sounds related.

Also seems part of the two-wrongs-make-a-right mentality that leads to people thinking men are valid targets for sexualised harassment, rather than trying to tackle the harassment of women so no-one has to suffer it.


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