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12 Apr 2013 - 12:01100833
Dead or alive, you're coming with me.


12 Apr 2013 - 14:07100838
JaeXD, I'd agree with the not taking crap from people, although since those people are usually men, and usually doing this to women, the physical aspect of them simply being stronger and bigger is a bit of a pain. You can't kick them in the nuts if they hold onto you (or if you do you may be hit back).

I'd never recommend physical effort to resist beyond what is reasonable to hold someone off; else you may be considered as bad as going down to their level.

It'd be much better to report it if there is a reasonable chance it will have something done about it (the person being banned from the event, or if reported to the police them getting cautioned or even arrested - there are some real horror stories of behaviour around). A culture of proper followup of this in a serious manner is key. The people with the power (event staff, the police) need to make sure they are there for those who want their help (The Police are the extreme case btw, obviously!).

It'll be a lot of repeat offenders otherwise, since if you send someone on their way (nicely or not) they'll just move onto someone else. They might not even think it malicious or crossing any lines unless they get told off by a third party with authority.

Awareness is important to know cosplayers should tell someone in authority, and to tell the offenders they shouldn't do it in the first place

I think keeping it simple is fine; the thread title "Costumes are not consent" is a great motto for a poster or badge

I'm looking around and Moo do some good sticker deals; I've used them before, top quality. Rectangular ones 8.4cm x 5.5cm are 50 Stickers for £15.99. It'd be nice to have a picture of some kind.

http://uk.moo.com/products/business-logo-stickers.html

Perhaps a link to the facebook page on it too.

Of course it comes out around the same for 200 or so, but gets a bit cheaper for more. 32p each for the lowest (50) pack though.

I'll continue looking in any case (Moo is cool since you can do tons of different designs, which is why I guess they cost a bit more!).

EDIT: Found a few more sites, single design ones for indoor stickers (no vinal) are sometimes cheaper. Basically I need a design (I can do basic inkscape text, heh) before I'd order any to see their quality. I'm willing to front the cost for a small initial run.



Last edited by Andrew Armstrong (12 Apr 2013 - 18:03)
12 Apr 2013 - 16:30100844
Quote JaeXD:
I propose everyone toughen the f*** up.

I'm not saying let it happen, but rather the opposite.

One of the most dangerous yet silent effects of the "Popularity Contest" that's being a cancer on the community is everyone is so unremarkably nice to each other and willing to look the other way the first or second time because everyone is afraid of being disliked. You realise this is enabling the bad behaviour?

"I was in shock" "I thought I'd let them get away" "I tried to hide"

Kick a douchebag in the nuts, who cares? Everyone'll laugh at him and he'll be too embarassed to take it further. Or you can tell them kindly to go home and step on a lego.

Our community is nice, and I commend you all for making it nice but we're adults now wether we like it or not and we've got to be the ones who pull the twats to the side and say "Listen, we don't give second chances to knobheads like you. There are laws on harrassment, feel lucky that I'm asking you to leave now".

We have a problem, so let's fix the problem. I'm not saying expect harassment just to be mindful that not everyone is as nice as the majority and there's always the minority who make it worse. Be the educators and upstanding members of the community that you are and excercise some tough love.

Perhaps over time we can extinguish that minority and with sustained effort keep it away altogether.

Edit: I believe change comes from within and stickers may be seen as yet another popularity contest as in "I'm more aware than you" or "I want a sticker like everyone else so I can be in the cool/aware crowd". Start with yourself and the attitude will spread, there's no quick fix here.


I don't want to assume that you haven't been inappropriately touched in public or anything but your response doesn't seem to empathise with just how horrible a situation like that can be, ideally it would be great to hit someone and stop them from being suck a dick but it's not always that easy and some people might not want to be forced to be confrontational.
When it happened to me my first reaction was to hit the person, I did but I just caught them as they were getting away (they seemed to have planned this) I did not however want to go running off after them to have a fist fight being 5ft nothing and all alone and having just been violated.

In regards to the 'sticker crowd' idea that you've put forward, sure I agree having stickers and other things for awareness raising might come across like that but personally I'd still rather try to raise awareness and risk causing a slight 'scene' issue than to ignore this.



Last edited by Afireinsidegirl (12 Apr 2013 - 16:44)
12 Apr 2013 - 16:33100845
Quote Andrew Armstrong:
JaeXD, I'd agree with the not taking crap from people, although since those people are usually men, and usually doing this to women, the physical aspect of them simply being stronger and bigger is a bit of a pain. You can't kick them in the nuts if they hold onto you (or if you do you may be hit back).

I'd never recommend physical effort to resist beyond what is reasonable to hold someone off; else you may be considered as bad as them going down to their level.


Couldn't agree with this more!! I was trying to express a similar thing myself.
Violence is not the right answer for some peeps and the 'physical' and 'mental' aspect of these type of things do not always allow for people to go running around getting their own back!!


12 Apr 2013 - 18:37100857
I think the problem for some people is they cant always stand up for themselves.

I've not been in a situation like the ones we've seen described throughout there, but I've never been good with confrontation, and if I was caught on the receiving end of something like this, I don't know if I'd be able to react to stop the person.

So I think its a good idea to have people who would look out for their fellow cosplayer.

Edit: Just seen this little strip that was done in support of this
http://kanthara.tumblr.com/image/47790708113


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Last edited by MattDark (12 Apr 2013 - 20:24)
12 Apr 2013 - 22:40100874
Quote Afireinsidegirl:
Quote JaeXD:
I propose everyone toughen the f*** up.

I'm not saying let it happen, but rather the opposite.

One of the most dangerous yet silent effects of the "Popularity Contest" that's being a cancer on the community is everyone is so unremarkably nice to each other and willing to look the other way the first or second time because everyone is afraid of being disliked. You realise this is enabling the bad behaviour?

"I was in shock" "I thought I'd let them get away" "I tried to hide"

Kick a douchebag in the nuts, who cares? Everyone'll laugh at him and he'll be too embarassed to take it further. Or you can tell them kindly to go home and step on a lego.

Our community is nice, and I commend you all for making it nice but we're adults now wether we like it or not and we've got to be the ones who pull the twats to the side and say "Listen, we don't give second chances to knobheads like you. There are laws on harrassment, feel lucky that I'm asking you to leave now".

We have a problem, so let's fix the problem. I'm not saying expect harassment just to be mindful that not everyone is as nice as the majority and there's always the minority who make it worse. Be the educators and upstanding members of the community that you are and excercise some tough love.

Perhaps over time we can extinguish that minority and with sustained effort keep it away altogether.

Edit: I believe change comes from within and stickers may be seen as yet another popularity contest as in "I'm more aware than you" or "I want a sticker like everyone else so I can be in the cool/aware crowd". Start with yourself and the attitude will spread, there's no quick fix here.


I don't want to assume that you haven't been inappropriately touched in public or anything but your response doesn't seem to empathise with just how horrible a situation like that can be, ideally it would be great to hit someone and stop them from being suck a dick but it's not always that easy and some people might not want to be forced to be confrontational.
When it happened to me my first reaction was to hit the person, I did but I just caught them as they were getting away (they seemed to have planned this) I did not however want to go running off after them to have a fist fight being 5ft nothing and all alone and having just been violated.

In regards to the 'sticker crowd' idea that you've put forward, sure I agree having stickers and other things for awareness raising might come across like that but personally I'd still rather try to raise awareness and risk causing a slight 'scene' issue than to ignore this.


Empathy isn't my strong suit, I have... trouble let's say with that. But you are right, guys get harassed too and when you're good at playing the characters I do there can be "altercations". Then again I think glomps are also harassment as I like to be able to choose who I do and do not make physical contact with and I'd shower/wash profusely should I be glomped.

Perhaps physical action is not applicable to all. Perhaps a name/photo and shame, to get a photo and then whack it online but that would provide some negative feedback from whiteknights, cynics, trolls and those who wish to cover shit up for their mates if they are pretty well known.

Any action taken needs to be evaluated against possible misconstruents; i.e. "could this be taken in a manner that was unintended? Would I be making things worse for myself?"

It's all a risk, though some are safer than others.

Do as you like, I'll take the direct road and be there to "have a little chat" with any offenders if see it.


12 Apr 2013 - 23:19100876
Just read this take on the movement - http://dragonfyredesigns.wordpress.com/2013/04/06/please-dont-touch-the-talent/. I like his suggestions for things we can do.


13 Apr 2013 - 11:14100886
Quote JaeXD:

Any action taken needs to be evaluated against possible misconstruents; i.e. "could this be taken in a manner that was unintended? Would I be making things worse for myself?"

It's all a risk, though some are safer than others.

I completely agree and I think people shouldn't move into this thing lightly, individual actions can not only represent you but whole groups of people too!


13 Apr 2013 - 12:54100889
Very cool article with some good advice, although no mention of reporting the real trouble makers it's still cool to stay in groups.

http://dragonfyredesigns.wordpress.com/2013/04/06/please-dont-touch-the-talent/


15 Apr 2013 - 02:51100975
I feel like one of the main ideas to be promoted is the same as my favourite one to throw at rape apologists: "Everything except yes, means no."

So regarding what silver-vixi said about taking into mind what you're broadcasting about yourself — what we need people to understand, is this:

That no one is EVER broadcasting, "I want you to touch me," or, "I want you to make a sexual comment to me," unless they have actually said that to you in their own words. Ever. The end.

I still think stickers are a good idea! Even if people only want them so they can get on the awareness bandwagon.... at least they're on it? Even if they're only getting up in arms about it for moral gratification (although I hate the term white knight — I firmly believe that as long as you're supporting a good cause and not doing any harm, it doesn't matter why), at least they're getting up in arms about it. And it most likely WILL resonate with them in future.

On a better note — I absolutely LOVE that 'do not touch the talent' article, and shall immediately start sharing it out. In particular, the suggestion of coming up with poses that don't invite someone having a photo with you to touch you if you don't want it! I'm imagining action poses in particular — what a good way to make a statement about how you're there as a character, in costume, and are not a piece of meat! Also there's so much fun to be had with pictures of you in battle with your unsuspecting victim (With discretion applied of course, following the convention's usual weapons policies!)


__________________
15 Apr 2013 - 10:21100981
That article is amazing! I agree with everything this guy says!!!!
People need to stop making cosplay a competition for likes, (sometimes)dislikes and for 'babes' as he puts it
Although this isn't all down to people within the community some of it is, so it would be great to see this type of thing challenged from within the community!
Cosplayers do need to stop eating their own
People do need to look out for themselves more (and other people) and a huge 'this is not ok' need to be sent out to all the nasties who think it's ok to treat people like this!! Which I think is kinda JaeXD's point of sticking up for yourself.

Also this>
'We dress up to attract attention—to be looked at and photographed.' Was kinda my point when I questioned who we are cosplaying for a while back, he just said it way better than me regardless of the fact we are dressing up and may be aware that we will attract attention I think we can take control of what type of attention we receive!

I'm game for planning preventative measures and awareness raising, a few ideas have been tossed around in this thread and well if I can do anything to help someone please tell me! I hate people suffering at the hands of creeps!!!


15 Apr 2013 - 14:05100991
OK, here's a new puzzle for you:

Given the nature of some of my costumes (and my friends in general) I might consent to some photos with more physical contact, or naughtier poses, than I normally would with members of the general public.

Obviously in person I can explain to a creeper that the consent does not apply to them. And I can always be careful where such pictures are taken, and by whom. But anyone got thoughts on how to incorporate consensual "inappropriate" behaviour into the message?


Quote JaeXD:
Dead or alive, you're coming with me.


Actually, "Your move, creep!" would make a good poster caption


15 Apr 2013 - 15:45101000
Thats a difficult one. It may depend on the cosplayer is ok with it really, if they are doing it for a bit of laugh to make for a fun photo.

Its also a case of making sure the person getting a picture with them understands its just a bit of light-hearted fun.

TBH, if I want to get a pic with someone, its generally just the hand on shoulder/arm around waist type of pic.


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Current projects:
My Almost Perfect Life - Written out story draft, converting into script.
Netherworld Chronicles - Initinal planning finished, writing first draft.
Urban Warfare - Researching and planning
15 Apr 2013 - 18:48101013
Simple PandoraCaitiff: the person wanting a photo asks you first!

It's pretty much what this all boils down to, asking first - and the default behaviour people should have is assuming answer would be a no.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that cosplayers shouldn't have ridiculous poses (especially with friends), but I agree it could be misconstrued as that. Certainly this thread has 99% of the time solely brought up people the cosplayer doesn't know who have done things.

I'll look at stickers some more when I have time. If anyone has any idea of a nice font to use (since I want to keep this simple) feel free to suggest.


16 Apr 2013 - 10:06101050
Yeah. I was just trying to come up with something clear like, "Just because I let Chantelle grab my butt in pictures, doesn't mean anyone else is entitled to touch me!"

I think making people aware that consent is on a case by case basis is all part of the message we're trying to spread.

As an extra to the the "ask first", we also need to make everyone aware that cosplayers have the right to say no, even if asked nicely.


16 Apr 2013 - 16:44101083
Yes absolutely I think the main call is to always ask and always expect a no.


16 Apr 2013 - 23:55101112
Quote Afireinsidegirl:


Also as people have mentioned we've got the wider social issue of sexism, clothing and women(some men) becoming objects. While sexism has come a long way from women not being allow to work/vote/breathe we've still got women being used for advertisement of new company products or gaining/not gaining particular jobs because of how they look. If women (and men) continue to be objectified within larger society individuals will continue to think it's ok to view them as objects.



Now that we have reached a consensus in the thread ie Harassment is bad in any situation and we should not have to suffer it! (Of course I totally agree), ..I would like to ask about something you wrote earlier. Can you explain to me what you mean by 'objectified' please. I kept coming across statements about objectification in feminist articles when I did my art course. I never understood what they meant. An object to me is eg a cup, or a tree, or a car etc. I really dont understand how it applies to a person. No one has been able to explain it to me. ..can you help me to understand what you mean when you talk about someone being objectified? How can a person be viewed as an object??


17 Apr 2013 - 00:16101113
Quote Ranma1-2:

Now that we have reached a consensus in the thread ie Harassment is bad in any situation and we should not have to suffer it! (Of course I totally agree), ..I would like to ask about something you wrote earlier. Can you explain to me what you mean by 'objectified' please. I kept coming across statements about objectification in feminist articles when I did my art course. I never understood what they meant. An object to me is eg a cup, or a tree, or a car etc. I really dont understand how it applies to a person. No one has been able to explain it to me. ..can you help me to understand what you mean when you talk about someone being objectified? How can a person be viewed as an object??


I've mostly stayed out of this one (given I tend to inflame things), but overall I'm happy the general consensus is "don't be a creepy touchy feely dick (without advance permission)".

However as for this question, I guess its kind of difficult to explain concisely, and give a specific example.

When you think of any of those objects you mentioned or interact with them, they are considered to be non-sentient and therefore they don't have feelings, opinions or input on how they're treated. Objectification is arguably (with regards to people anyway) removing the human traits and treating someone more as an object - their opinions/thoughts/feelings on how theyre treated doesn't matter and why should it, they're just an object to be used as the objectifier sees fit right?

The subject is however both a touchy one and a rather deep one given how it can be tied into various areas of pyschology, amongst several other subjects, and then applied to many situations.


17 Apr 2013 - 02:53101115
Quote Ranma1-2:
I kept coming across statements about objectification in feminist articles when I did my art course. I never understood what they meant. An object to me is eg a cup, or a tree, or a car etc. I really dont understand how it applies to a person. No one has been able to explain it to me. ..can you help me to understand what you mean when you talk about someone being objectified? How can a person be viewed as an object??


In the context of feminist articles... the easiest way I can think to explain it is that, like Junta said, it's treating a person (in the case of feminism, a woman) as an object. The literal definition is as a non-sentient being, but this has obviously got a certain amount of exaggeration to it, as I'm sure no one objectifies women by literally not understanding that they're sentient.

However, thankfully this broader definition isn't too relevant! In the context we're using, objectification describes sexual objectification — for a basic example, the idea of a man objectifying a woman by making a crude comment about her body. Let's say our imaginary gentleman has just grabbed a woman's breast in the street, and exclaimed, 'Nice tits!' We recognise that this is completely inappropriate, and that the woman has every right to be very upset by it. Our man knows this, and yet has still invaded her personal space for his own pleasure, as her worth to him as an object of sexual gratification — something to touch, and express desire for — outweighs her worth as a human being with boundaries to respect. Literally, her worth to him as an object for his use, is greater than her worth to him as a complete person. Objectification!


__________________
17 Apr 2013 - 09:48101120
Also, men's "lifestyle" magazines are great places to see a very specific type of objectification.

Have you ever seen an article reviewing gadgets where for no reason the gadget is being held by a woman in a her underwear? In this kind of situation the women are literaly being objectified. They are fulfilling the same role as a display stand, and are only there for the readers' gratification. They're not a person, but mere decoration.


17 Apr 2013 - 11:05101124
I see it as a way of describing that the woman (or man) is seen as being a thing that exists primarilly for the person's sexual gratification or enjoyment without any reference to their thoughts or feelings. If you touch someone without their consent you're clearly not thinking about how this makes them feel.


__________________
17 Apr 2013 - 22:01101156
Thanks for your answers guys. Keep them coming tho cuz I am still not seeing it yet.

I can see a person with very bad morals could grope a woman and think it is ok to do so, but I cant see why that makes the woman an object. The creep in question wouldnt bother to grope say a shop mannequin because that is just an object! Instead the creep wants to grope the woman precisely because she is a real person. (probably he cant get a GF in real life) (small wonder). His actions are an abhorent violation of her rights. They show inequality toward the woman and a complete disregard of her own feelings but she hasnt become an object.

Advertising - Again I dont see where the woman (or man) becomes an object. Advertisers are tuned in to human behaviour, and they choose a model they think will draw the most attention to thier ad. It is a shamelss method of catching attention, but it works because attraction is what it is. So eg I dont see why David Beckham in his skimpy briefs becomes 'objectified', everybody knows he is a real person. More than that.. he is a married man. Does that stop women enjoying the view? or even fantasizing? I dont think so. Does it turn him into an object? I dont see that either. I imagine women would not get the same pleasure looking at Michelangelos nude David statue in the same way - now that is an object. But the advertisers get what they want ie attention and the sales of those briefs goes up.

Another example - the 'diet coke time' man (who just happens to be a well fit builder stripped to the waist) and the office girls who all gather at a certain time of the day to watch him down his can of coke. They all appear to be enjoying the view. This would probably be called 'objectification' too? But the guy is absolutley animate. Thats why I dont understand the use of the word 'object'.

Final example, from a different angle.. A bunch of girls go on a night out. They dress to the nines, all legs and boobs, and hit tinsel town. They dont want to start serious relationships..but casual sex would be nice to end the night with.. - Are they 'objectifying' themselves?


17 Apr 2013 - 23:44101165
I'll try to address your examples in a number order.

1. Going back to my example/definition, from his perspective, her inner thoughts/reactions/feelings/input (sentience if you like, and society's input on it) on the matter are irrelevant to his own interaction/use of her physical body.

2. Again here for the advertising - purely the physical appearance, no mental consideration of the *model*, and what are most viewer's responses?

3. Beckham - again, purely the physical (although for him, money comes into the equation imo). Most people 'ogling' such a body tend to make comments on what THEY would DO to IT. Not do to THEM. Or what the reaction of the person having things done to them would be.

4. This one goes into that "difficult" area I mentioned imo, with different responses likely to vary from "yes" and "no" to responses involving empowerment, the alleged inability to objectify oneself and others. I'll leave it alone beyond this XD

I think it would appear you're focusing more on whether they are animate or not, which isn't the point or right criteria to do with objectification.

It comes more down to the lack of consideration of the sentience of the target by the person interacting with or about the "subject/target person/animal". It's not that they are literally an inanimate object, more that they're not considering the target as anything but a passive non-sentient object; as I mentioned before, they're not interested in the sentient being and its reactions/thoughts, just its container if you like.

Perhaps a more simplistic definition is "looking at the external and ignoring the internal", with the 'external' refering to what can be seen (body/flesh) and the 'internal' refering to what can't - personality/emotions etc?



Last edited by Junta (17 Apr 2013 - 23:50)
18 Apr 2013 - 10:19101183
Like all things in these sort of discussions "objectification" is a useful term for talking about a concept but that doesn't mean its perfect and covers anything. It's about taking consideration for the other person's feelings rather than seeing them as just existing for your enjoyment.

When you say that you don't see women looking at Michaelangelo's david in the same way as David Beckham I think that's more to do with David not representing what most women find attractive (and actually if you think of classically statues most of them represent what would been a male perspective on physical attractiveness at the time). What about instead sexy anime figures or doujinshi?

Now I actually don't think there's anything wrong with sexy images of men and women but its important to have a culture where this doesn't lead to us dehumanising the opposite gender.


__________________
18 Apr 2013 - 11:58101187
Quote Carmina:
What about instead sexy anime figures or doujinshi?

Ooh! That's just reminded me of another type of objectification. This one usually gets applied to men!

The Yaoi fangirls often get a bad rep because a subgroup of them objectify people cosplaying the characters they 'ship. When you ignore that there's a person inside the costume and treat cosplayers like dolls to play with (such as by demanding they kiss, or perform explicit poses) you're objectifying them.

This might all tie in with entitlement too. The creepers (of both genders) feel that we are all here for their pleasure, and out feelings are less important.


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