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10 Apr 2013 - 18:31100735
Quote silver-vixi:
As much as a bit of awareness won't hurt any one, I'm kinda worried about some of the responses about photography -

If you're in a public place in a costume people do not have to ask for your permission to take a photograph. They do not have to have your permission to film you either.

You may request a picture or a film of you to be taken off the internet, but if you were in a public place I'm a afraid you don't have a leg to stand on.

Although it's nice to be asked for a photo you can't seriously be demanding that people can't take a picture of you without asking!

I'm not defending people who invade personal space - but the onus is not just on them to stay away, it's on you to be aware and protect yourself. There are nasty people around and not everyone at a convention is a nicey nice person, there's no vetting criteria for getting in and you are responsible for your own safety. Not everyone who acts like they didn't know any better is actually telling the truth.

Whether you like it or not, there are predators, lots of them and wearing sexy cosplays IS consent for a lot of things and it isn't all in the convention hall. People could get hold of your pictures and masturbate to them for example, it's not exclusive to those on CD.

So,you have to ask yourself about the audience and whether you are happy with that audience - you have to be aware that you are objectifying yourself in any cosplay. People aren't going to see YOU they are going to see the character.

I know my views aren't the most popular, but I feel they need to be taken into account.



I've got to say i'm with you on the photography side. for me its more the gropey/creepy/generally inappropriate behavior that's the issue.

through my years in art school I regularly campaigned for rights for photographers to be able to take 'candid portraits'. of course if anyone ever questioned a portrait i'd taken and they weren't happy I would happily delete it (if I was using my digital camera).

I mean sure, its slightly different in that my photos were for genuinely artistic purposes.

but some people at cons would argue that there's are.

but I think awareness of these issues should be made public x


10 Apr 2013 - 19:36100741
Quote silver-vixi:
As much as a bit of awareness won't hurt any one, I'm kinda worried about some of the responses about photography -

If you're in a public place in a costume people do not have to ask for your permission to take a photograph. They do not have to have your permission to film you either.

You may request a picture or a film of you to be taken off the internet, but if you were in a public place I'm a afraid you don't have a leg to stand on.

Although it's nice to be asked for a photo you can't seriously be demanding that people can't take a picture of you without asking!

I'm not defending people who invade personal space - but the onus is not just on them to stay away, it's on you to be aware and protect yourself. There are nasty people around and not everyone at a convention is a nicey nice person, there's no vetting criteria for getting in and you are responsible for your own safety. Not everyone who acts like they didn't know any better is actually telling the truth.

Whether you like it or not, there are predators, lots of them and wearing sexy cosplays IS consent for a lot of things and it isn't all in the convention hall. People could get hold of your pictures and masturbate to them for example, it's not exclusive to those on CD.

So,you have to ask yourself about the audience and whether you are happy with that audience - you have to be aware that you are objectifying yourself in any cosplay. People aren't going to see YOU they are going to see the character.

I know my views aren't the most popular, but I feel they need to be taken into account.


On the photography side: who exactly does it put out to politely ask before taking a photo? I mean I don't think someone needs to ask permission if you happen to be standing in the background, its a general view of the crowd or if you're in a masquerade (in which case you've implicitly given consent). What we're talking about here is people covertly taking "sneaky" photos, which is deeply unpleasent and unsettling. And just because its not illegal doesn't stop it being immoral.

Honestly I find your arguments deeply unsettling. Taken to extremes they're along the same lines as the arguments rape apologists use (not that I'm saying that being groped is in any way comparable to being assaulted but its the "she was wearing revealing clothes so she must have been consenting" ). Regardless the onus is always on the perpetrator not the victim. I agree that staying safe and protecting yourself is an unfortunate necessity. However I really wish it wasn't a necessity though and I think these kind of campaigns are trying to change that. I don't know that all the people who do these things are "bad" people per se but clearly they have a lack of social awareness and by raising awareness we might be able to change that.

If you want to avoid people masturbating to your pictures, then honestly you shouldn't post any photos of yourself online ever because whatever you do there's always a possibility that someone will do that. Just by cosplaying and posting pictures of yourself, you're drawing attention to yourself.

EDIT: Urgh, stupid emoticons decided to turn my punctuation in to a winking face at a totally imappropriate point.


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Last edited by Carmina (10 Apr 2013 - 23:16)
10 Apr 2013 - 19:39100742
Quote loramarsden:
Quote silver-vixi:
As much as a bit of awareness won't hurt any one, I'm kinda worried about some of the responses about photography -

If you're in a public place in a costume people do not have to ask for your permission to take a photograph. They do not have to have your permission to film you either.

You may request a picture or a film of you to be taken off the internet, but if you were in a public place I'm a afraid you don't have a leg to stand on.

Although it's nice to be asked for a photo you can't seriously be demanding that people can't take a picture of you without asking!

I'm not defending people who invade personal space - but the onus is not just on them to stay away, it's on you to be aware and protect yourself. There are nasty people around and not everyone at a convention is a nicey nice person, there's no vetting criteria for getting in and you are responsible for your own safety. Not everyone who acts like they didn't know any better is actually telling the truth.

Whether you like it or not, there are predators, lots of them and wearing sexy cosplays IS consent for a lot of things and it isn't all in the convention hall. People could get hold of your pictures and masturbate to them for example, it's not exclusive to those on CD.

So,you have to ask yourself about the audience and whether you are happy with that audience - you have to be aware that you are objectifying yourself in any cosplay. People aren't going to see YOU they are going to see the character.

I know my views aren't the most popular, but I feel they need to be taken into account.



I've got to say i'm with you on the photography side. for me its more the gropey/creepy/generally inappropriate behavior that's the issue.

through my years in art school I regularly campaigned for rights for photographers to be able to take 'candid portraits'. of course if anyone ever questioned a portrait i'd taken and they weren't happy I would happily delete it (if I was using my digital camera).

I mean sure, its slightly different in that my photos were for genuinely artistic purposes.

but some people at cons would argue that there's are.

but I think awareness of these issues should be made public x


The candid pictures thing I don't might so much but if it were me I would prefer if you then asked afterwards if you could use it.


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10 Apr 2013 - 22:48100758
Quote silver-vixi:
I know my views aren't the most popular, but I feel they need to be taken into account.


There is a world of difference between a cheeky snap when a cosplayer is rearranging themselves, and (for example)lying in wait under open stairs. Or between taking a crowd shot, and taking a closeup of a cosplayer in that group's camel toe.

For comparison, how do you feel about the press using telephoto lenses and helicopters to take pictures of celebrities on private land sheltered from public view?

As for the other thing? That doesn't bother me in the slightest. I know that some of my Flickr pics have been used for masturbatory purposes.


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11 Apr 2013 - 00:42100762
Wow cool to see lots of replies

Quote Afireinsidegirl:
I wanting to ask the 'Do we dress up for other people's benefit as a community?


Why does anyone have to benefit? I'm confused by this line of thinking, and not everyone will say the same thing. I think most do it to simply look pretty darn cool or to act like someone else for a bit

Quote silver-vixi:
No- cosplay isn't consent but we should ask ourselves WHY we are cosplaying and if we don't like the attention certain types of cosplay brings perhaps we should just bite the bullet and cosplay something else?


Utter rubbish IMO. For starters as stated numerous times in this very thread by girls, they have been groped when not wearing "sexy" outfits, and who determines the line to draw here? As others mentioned this sounds dangerously close to blaming rape victims for wearing skimpy clothing, which is just totally wrong in all senses.

Quote Frederica_la_Noir:
...I agreed to a photo with them they could squeeze my arse as the photos were taken and it wouldn't matter, since I was representing a company I didn't say anything just swiftly moved their hand from my rear as soon as they'd done it; this sort of thing I just take with a pinch of salt, however in the same day I also had my chest groped by one guy which I feel really crossed the line but again apart from telling him that was unacceptable (which was followed by a shrug) at the time I felt there wasn't much I could have done about it.


Out of interest, I'd love to know if it happened again if you'd report it, I hope so!

For starters, it'd reflect very badly on the company if people saw that kind of behaviour going on - just from their reputation point of view, and no doubt they'd not be happy to know their paid staff are getting groped (even if you're not permanent staff).

I hoped there would be a happier ending then a simple shrug. Fuck him, seriously, what a fucking immature dick. Grrr.

----

As for the photographs and permissions thing; there is a world of difference between the law and moral boundaries.

Just because you can justify something as legal doesn't make it right. There is no way a stupid law would come in saying "You can't photograph anyone without their permission" because that is patently ridiculous and would simply stop all public photography, but at the same time you can't claim that taking candid upskirt photos, photos down cleavage, or photos of unintentionally uncovered parts of the body as a moral thing to do - it simply isn't nice.

There are also differences at a convention or expo where you abide by the convention rules or get banned, for instance the MCM state in their FAQ:

Quote:
Am I allowed to take photographs and video?
We welcome you to take as many photographs and videos as you can, although please be aware that if someone asks you not to please adhere to their wishes.


While I can't find the full terms and conditions for tickets on their site I am sure they include a clause that'd allow people to be banned at their digression (although that's a pretty general rule of entry to any private event!).

Also you might very well take note it isn't a popular view to simply state the law since it isn't the point of this discussion!

It isn't "against the law" immediately to touch someone else without their permission, since that would make life simply stupid (ever tried to move through a crowd before?), but there are simple lines that are obvious and these have been repeatedly stepped over, which is just completely wrong.

No one can justify this behaviour by saying it is "technically legal", laws are not moral high grounds or codification of morals, you are kinda missing the point of them if you think they are! (and let's not get down that long philosophical discussion thank you ).

----

I cheer on anyone here posting about this however, even if it is just bringing up law facts for some reason. More discussion the better, I do think it would be worth contacting the bigger Expo events if there are contacts available who are friendly to the cosplay community.



Last edited by Andrew Armstrong (11 Apr 2013 - 00:42)
11 Apr 2013 - 09:35100766
Actually, I was just trying to question pose when I said 'Do we dress up for other people's benefit as a community?' as a relatively new person to the cosplay 'community' I am constantly learning things about who cosplays, why they do it and how they do it. I wanted to see whether people have opinions on who cosplaying is aimed at, sure as individuals we know who we cosplay for but as a community I'm trying to question whether through popularity their is a shift, for example all the sites of sexy female cosplayers, they didn't dress like that for their own benefit also things like this http://www.cosplayisland.co.uk/forum?c=showthread&ThreadID=9981&page=1#lastpost
I agree with you that not everyone will say the same thing, I was just thinking out loud I guess.

Quote Andrew Armstrong:

As for the photographs and permissions thing; there is a world of difference between the law and moral boundaries.

I think you raise a good point on the front of photography, laws etc but I think personally it's less about laws and rules and more about protection ourselves, if we know these things can happen how can we as a community prevent it?
Let's face it laws and rules can be broken and sometimes they're totally stupid and unfit for purpose, but from this thread it's clear that people want to take preventative action against certain behaviour at cons (and maybe online too well at least I feel that way)


11 Apr 2013 - 11:48100773
I had an epically long reply, but really there's no point - all I'm really saying is that -

You must take responsibility for your own safety and be prepared for the consequences of what you wear; being objectified, judged, idolized, demonized and more. People judge by appearances they always have and probably always will - so what message about yourself are you broadcasting to the world? Because that's the only way they know you.


11 Apr 2013 - 12:55100776
Quote silver-vixi:
People judge by appearances they always have and probably always will


That's true. And their judgements are based on stereotypes. But stereotypes can be changed. Look at the 19th century portrayal of Africans as "savages" or the Chinese as "inscrutable Orientals".

I think it's worth fighting for. And I think we can win. It will just take persistence and time.


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11 Apr 2013 - 13:06100777
Quote PandoraCaitiff:
Quote silver-vixi:
People judge by appearances they always have and probably always will


That's true. And their judgements are based on stereotypes. But stereotypes can be changed. Look at the 19th century portrayal of Africans as "savages" or the Chinese as "inscrutable Orientals".

I think it's worth fighting for. And I think we can win. It will just take persistence and time.


Basically exactly this. Just because something happens doesn't mean we can't try to change it.

I think also no one here is saying people shouldn't being looking at women (or men) in revealing costumes and admiring, it's when boundaries are crossed that the issue arises.


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11 Apr 2013 - 13:47100778
Here! Here!


11 Apr 2013 - 15:28100780
Exactly Carmina. Obvious boundaries very badly crossed is the biggest problem!

Afireinsidegirl; sorry, yes, lots of different reasons people might do a costume, I was generalising, luckily I think we can skip that now since I don't think it'll affect anything in this thread now I get what you mean! I mistook it for something else.

My point on law was that stating that when the law doesn't explicitly say you can't do something still doesn't make it right

silver-vixi, so how do you propose people be safe? I honestly am interested in your ideas since you seem to think this is the most important point to this discussion since you're repeated it a few times. Also ignore the photography angle, I mean physical contact specifically.


11 Apr 2013 - 15:50100782
Quote silver-vixi:
I had an epically long reply, but really there's no point - all I'm really saying is that -

You must take responsibility for your own safety and be prepared for the consequences of what you wear; being objectified, judged, idolized, demonized and more. People judge by appearances they always have and probably always will - so what message about yourself are you broadcasting to the world? Because that's the only way they know you.


But the attitude is wider than that because some people aren't even wearing 'revealing' clothing and have still been harassed just for being in a costume.
I don't think it's right that anyone should expect to be harassed for their clothing but I do understand that certain types of clothing may attract certain types of attention (I think quite a few of us have said that).

People will always judge and while you can't stop people from judging you can challenge their actions based on their judgement if you believe them to be wrong and I think throughout this thread people have been making it clear that we as individual want to challenge behaviour that we deem as inappropriate (and we have touched on challenging it as a community).


11 Apr 2013 - 16:22100783
Quote Afireinsidegirl:

People will always judge and while you can't stop people from judging you can challenge their actions based on their judgement if you believe them to be wrong and I think throughout this thread people have been making it clear that we as individual want to challenge behaviour that we deem as inappropriate (and we have touched on challenging it as a community).


As far as people judging you goes, this a risk of being a cosplayer in general. We've all heard of people having abuse shouted at them just for being in costume.


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11 Apr 2013 - 20:29100804
Might need to rethink the sticker idea. I got quoted £45 for 200 stickers. Don't know about you, but that's out of my budget range. Can anyone quote me cheaper?


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11 Apr 2013 - 21:20100809
Quote Carmina:
Quote Afireinsidegirl:

People will always judge and while you can't stop people from judging you can challenge their actions based on their judgement if you believe them to be wrong and I think throughout this thread people have been making it clear that we as individual want to challenge behaviour that we deem as inappropriate (and we have touched on challenging it as a community).


As far as people judging you goes, this a risk of being a cosplayer in general. We've all heard of people having abuse shouted at them just for being in costume.


Oh yes, I know I have!!


11 Apr 2013 - 21:21100810
Quote PandoraCaitiff:
Might need to rethink the sticker idea. I got quoted £45 for 200 stickers. Don't know about you, but that's out of my budget range. Can anyone quote me cheaper?


How about we think of something else
A huge banner that we take to cons and get different people to hold/look after during the day could be a start to raising awareness on the topic?


11 Apr 2013 - 21:43100813
Quote PandoraCaitiff:
Might need to rethink the sticker idea. I got quoted £45 for 200 stickers. Don't know about you, but that's out of my budget range. Can anyone quote me cheaper?


That seems a bit expensive for only 200 stickers to me...


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11 Apr 2013 - 22:19100816
Quote Sisceal:
Quote PandoraCaitiff:
Might need to rethink the sticker idea. I got quoted £45 for 200 stickers. Don't know about you, but that's out of my budget range. Can anyone quote me cheaper?


That seems a bit expensive for only 200 stickers to me...


Glossy 2" diameter in strips of ten. Feel free to find a cheaper quote.

EDIT: For comparison, generic rectangular printer labels cost around £50 for the same quantity, and You'd have to print yourself.


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Last edited by PandoraCaitiff (12 Apr 2013 - 09:04)
12 Apr 2013 - 09:46100823
I'd need to look around, stickers do sound cool, a banner would be nice too - but I'm no graphic artist even if I had the time right now to do one up it'd look pretty bad!


12 Apr 2013 - 10:14100824
I propose everyone toughen the f*** up.

I'm not saying let it happen, but rather the opposite.

One of the most dangerous yet silent effects of the "Popularity Contest" that's being a cancer on the community is everyone is so unremarkably nice to each other and willing to look the other way the first or second time because everyone is afraid of being disliked. You realise this is enabling the bad behaviour?

"I was in shock" "I thought I'd let them get away" "I tried to hide"

Kick a douchebag in the nuts, who cares? Everyone'll laugh at him and he'll be too embarassed to take it further. Or you can tell them kindly to go home and step on a lego.

Our community is nice, and I commend you all for making it nice but we're adults now wether we like it or not and we've got to be the ones who pull the twats to the side and say "Listen, we don't give second chances to knobheads like you. There are laws on harrassment, feel lucky that I'm asking you to leave now".

We have a problem, so let's fix the problem. I'm not saying expect harassment just to be mindful that not everyone is as nice as the majority and there's always the minority who make it worse. Be the educators and upstanding members of the community that you are and excercise some tough love.

Perhaps over time we can extinguish that minority and with sustained effort keep it away altogether.

Edit: I believe change comes from within and stickers may be seen as yet another popularity contest as in "I'm more aware than you" or "I want a sticker like everyone else so I can be in the cool/aware crowd". Start with yourself and the attitude will spread, there's no quick fix here.



Last edited by JaeXD (12 Apr 2013 - 10:17)
12 Apr 2013 - 10:15100825
Quote Andrew Armstrong:
I'd need to look around, stickers do sound cool, a banner would be nice too - but I'm no graphic artist even if I had the time right now to do one up it'd look pretty bad!


The original project used a dry-erase pad and was handwritten. It doesn't have to be fancy, just legible. Shame we don't have a FB page or something that we could link to with a QR code!


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12 Apr 2013 - 10:31100826
Quote JaeXD:
Or you can tell them kindly to go home and step on a lego.


Nice turn of phrase

Just because we're focussing on telling the creeps not to be creeps, doesn't mean we can't also tell cosplayers they don't have to put up with this crap.

So how are these for proposed aims:

1) Reminding everyone that cosplaying is not "asking for it"
2) Reminding cosplayers they are not responsible for the creeps
3) Encouraging cosplayers to report or confront the creeps as appropriate
4) Any attempt to arrest a senior OCP employee results in complete shutdown


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12 Apr 2013 - 10:39100827
Quote PandoraCaitiff:
Quote JaeXD:
Or you can tell them kindly to go home and step on a lego.


Nice turn of phrase

Just because we're focussing on telling the creeps not to be creeps, doesn't mean we can't also tell cosplayers they don't have to put up with this crap.

So how are these for proposed aims:

1) Reminding everyone that cosplaying is not "asking for it"
2) Reminding cosplayers they are not responsible for the creeps
3) Encouraging cosplayers to report or confront the creeps as appropriate
4) Any attempt to arrest a senior OCP employee results in complete shutdown


I'd say also not everyone has the confidence to stand up to the people doing this- let's face it as a geek community many of us are socially awkward sometimes. So I'd add to these:

5) Making sure that we have an environment where people will feel they will be taking seriously if they report it (and this is something that is true of many conventions already).
6) If you see someone else being mistreated in this way then intervene.


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12 Apr 2013 - 11:13100828
Quote Carmina:
I'd say also not everyone has the confidence to stand up to the people doing this- let's face it as a geek community many of us are socially awkward sometimes. So I'd add to these:

5) Making sure that we have an environment where people will feel they will be taking seriously if they report it (and this is something that is true of many conventions already).
6) If you see someone else being mistreated in this way then intervene.


We could probably fold number 6 in with number 3 if we re-word it slightly. How about something like:

3) Encouraging cosplayers to report creeps (or confront them if safe), whether it's them or others being harassed.

I like your number 5. (My fourth was a joke, so yours needs renumbering )


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Last edited by PandoraCaitiff (12 Apr 2013 - 11:14) Reason: rogue apostrophe destroyed!
12 Apr 2013 - 11:42100831
Quote PandoraCaitiff:
Quote Carmina:
I'd say also not everyone has the confidence to stand up to the people doing this- let's face it as a geek community many of us are socially awkward sometimes. So I'd add to these:

5) Making sure that we have an environment where people will feel they will be taking seriously if they report it (and this is something that is true of many conventions already).
6) If you see someone else being mistreated in this way then intervene.


We could probably fold number 6 in with number 3 if we re-word it slightly. How about something like:

3) Encouraging cosplayers to report creeps (or confront them if safe), whether it's them or others being harassed.

I like your number 5. (My fourth was a joke, so yours needs renumbering )


Ha! Went over my head unfortunately as I didn't know where the reference was from (just looked it up ).


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