Login or register to post.
Login to reply  Page: « < 2 of 3 > »
12 Feb 2013 - 15:1597223
lol Jay, point.

Neither is wrong if you did it, same as it wouldn't be wrong if I did.

Watch out though Jay (lol)! People will say that a) you're not being true to yourself and b) your friends / the media / society has brainwashed you into doing either of these options!

^ that actually happened to a friend of mine, she's Mortal on here. People at our university were saying that we were forcing her to play a white character in re-enactment and we wouldn't accept her unless she identified white. She was being brainwashed by her horrible "friends".

She laughed at them.


12 Feb 2013 - 15:3097224
My friends know me well enough to know I'll leave the debate aside and go do what I want. I've had one dude give me a hard time when I whited my lower face for an Alan Gabriel cosplay (though Alan is a cyborg) but that guy was a mate anyway.

Being true to myself goes beyond skin colour. If my personality could be depicted by a skin colour it would be actual granite, or steel, or anything but flesh. Cold, tough but reliable steel.

My friends also know that my name is Jae, not Jay THIS DEBATE IS OVER(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻)



Last edited by JaeXD (12 Feb 2013 - 15:31)
12 Feb 2013 - 15:3497225
Jae, of course neither of those are wrong if that's what you want. The problem with skin lightening is often its very dangerous products being used by mostly (although not exclusively) young women to achieve a standard of beauty that is both unattainable and has its basis in some pretty unpleasent cultural history. People do go to dangerous extremes to tan too but that doesn't have the same history behind it. But there is nothing wrong with someone trying to influence their appearance if its being done for their own reasons.

Back to the main topic though, I don't see any problem with cosplaying someone of a different race (I'm pretty sure a high percentage of cosplayers have cosplayed asian characters). Subtlely altering your appearance for the sake of accuracy is fine too but that's quite a world of difference from doing blackface.


__________________
12 Feb 2013 - 15:4397226
I went to India the year before last and in between having my intestines do the Gangnam Style dance and living off of dust and rabbit food I noticed advertisements for skin lightening. Not just a few, but loads. Everywhere, and no-one cared. It was the epitome of beauty not just for women but for men to lighten their skin. Lightening skin whether by chemical or natural means is still lightening one's skin; the goal/end result is the same.

But they didn't care much about the politics, it's just a thing. If you wanted to look upper class (due to local weather, if you were dark skinned it meant you had an outside job and had a menial job). If you had dark skin, it would be amazing to have light skin so you too could feel good about yourself.

It's almost like standard makeup. You're changing the colours on your face to feel good about yourself and it's socially acceptable if not encouraged.

It's so hard to say what isn't and is offensive for oneself because often we are taking offense for someone else, even when they didn't ask you to.

I guess what I'm trying to say is altering skin tones a few shades here n'there shouldn't be frowned upon.

Going full on blackface or whiteface or even brownface and being an ass about it (i.e slapping that shit on like boot polish) now there's a warrant for a thrashing.



Last edited by JaeXD (12 Feb 2013 - 15:46)
12 Feb 2013 - 16:0097227
Quote JaeXD:
But they didn't care much about the politics, it's just a thing. If you wanted to look upper class (due to local weather, if you were dark skinned it meant you had an outside job and had a menial job). If you had dark skin, it would be amazing to have light skin so you too could feel good about yourself.


Its the same in the Filipino community here in the UK too. But it is kinda politics. It's ingrained classism that's long out of date, but still has an effect even now. I've seen bathroom cabinets full of lightening creams, and people afraid to join us in the garden for fear of getting a tan, and looking lower class.

Quote JaeXD:
I guess what I'm trying to say is altering skin tones a few shades here n'there shouldn't be frowned upon.

Going full on blackface or whiteface or even brownface and being an ass about it (i.e slapping that shit on like boot polish) now there's a warrant for a thrashing.


Seems reasonable. I didn't have a clear opinion on the tanning/lightening thing. Personally I wouldn't do it but I don't think a few shades would cause offence.


__________________
12 Feb 2013 - 16:1997229
Quote JaeXD:

My friends also know that my name is Jae, not Jay THIS DEBATE IS OVER(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻)


My apologies for misspelling your name Jae , I am a complete moron and should be severely punished for my ineptitude and penchant for spelling things phonetically.

My backwards thinking and use of stereotypical spellings is completely wordist and I should be more forward thinking in my use of spellings in the future. Although you can be sure I will still use the spelling "Jay" when it comes to my boyfriend's sister because putting a y on the end of a name should not be considered wordist when in a certain context.

'.~

In other news - isn't it just the human condition to want what you don't have? People want curly hair if they have straight hair and vice versa. Plenty of girls here get fake tans because it's impossible to get a tan these days in the UK (thank you no summer) while tanned people have skin whitening creams. And what about goths and skin whitening! XD

This is pretty much like the historical costume/characters debate, how much time has to pass before we move on?

There is no arbitrary line, it's squiggley and biased and based on subjectivity and sensitivity.



Last edited by Jenivix (12 Feb 2013 - 16:30)
12 Feb 2013 - 16:2297230
Its a tricky topic. Obviously having the agency to do whatever you want with your own person is a necessity in any free society. On the other hand like Pandora says a lot of it is linked to class systems and politics. What bothers me is the idea that someone might be made to feel that their appearance was somehow inferior due to say external pressure from the media/ their peers.


__________________
12 Feb 2013 - 16:4497231
Quote silver-vixi:
My backwards thinking and use of stereotypical spellings is completely wordist and I should be more forward thinking in my use of spellings in the future. Although you can be sure I will still use the spelling "Jay" when it comes to my boyfriend's sister because putting a y on the end of a name should not be considered wordist when in a certain context.


PRIVILEGE!


Quote silver-vixi:
And what about goths and skin whitening! XD


And that's the other reason I was quiet about the minor changes to skin colour. Although I am naturally quite pale.


__________________

Last edited by PandoraCaitiff (12 Feb 2013 - 16:45)
12 Feb 2013 - 16:5097233
Quote PandoraCaitiff:

And that's the other reason I was quiet about the minor changes to skin colour. Although I am naturally quite pale.


You know I always hated being pale, so having a goth friend express jealousy towards me for my skin tone came as a surprise.

True enough though that the issue isn't very clear cut and context always should matter.


__________________
12 Feb 2013 - 19:3197239
Ugh these debates always suck. Like most other things, all the shades of grey, not absolutes and at the end of the day, intent matters a lot imo.

If people want something to debate on this subject costume wise though, how about this one from my own old costumes: http://www.cosplayisland.co.uk/costume/view/16853

FFX Ifrit, in a more human style because frankly fursuiting doesnt appeal (cost, time, skill, transport etc). So effectively a 'beastman' - racist? And yes I'm well aware this may open a can of worms (or five).


12 Feb 2013 - 21:3197249
Quote Junta:
Ugh these debates always suck. Like most other things, all the shades of grey, not absolutes and at the end of the day, intent matters a lot imo.

If people want something to debate on this subject costume wise though, how about this one from my own old costumes: http://www.cosplayisland.co.uk/costume/view/16853

FFX Ifrit, in a more human style because frankly fursuiting doesnt appeal (cost, time, skill, transport etc). So effectively a 'beastman' - racist? And yes I'm well aware this may open a can of worms (or five).


Well since as we say context matters and as you were doing it as part of a group, it makes it clear what the cosplay is supposed to be.


__________________
12 Feb 2013 - 21:3797252
Junta - I think your Ifrit is really funky (in a good way)! I like it! =3 I certainly don't have a problem with it.

Carmina - even on it's own I think it would be perfectly fine. It's tasteful and not mocking. Saying it's only ok because of context here undermines the cosplay.



Last edited by Jenivix (12 Feb 2013 - 21:39)
12 Feb 2013 - 21:5397255
Quote silver-vixi:
Junta - I think your Ifrit is really funky (in a good way)! I like it! =3 I certainly don't have a problem with it.

Carmina - even on it's own I think it would be perfectly fine. It's tasteful and not mocking. Saying it's only ok because of context here undermines the cosplay.


I didn't comment on the quality of the costume, however yes its clear that a lot of work and effort went in to it. There's always going to be shades of grey though and someone could read it the wrong way if they didn't know the context, so I don't think saying context matters is undermining the cosplay.


__________________
12 Feb 2013 - 22:5497257
Haha, cheers - probably the thing I'm most proud of (quite a few things I've never uploaded here, I just tend to forget). I've been wanting to redo it for years with claws and horns, but don't think I ever will.

I did have some major grief from a couple of people over it the day after about how I'd "blacked up" and it was racist, so I was mostly curious as to what the response would be from people in this thread =)



Last edited by Junta (12 Feb 2013 - 22:56)
12 Feb 2013 - 23:3097259
Quote Junta:
I did have some major grief from a couple of people over it the day after about how I'd "blacked up" and it was racist, so I was mostly curious as to what the response would be from people in this thread =)


Honestly? Its not a costume I'd have done, and I probably wouldn't have been comfortable being around you wearing it.

As established, I'm pretty damn white, so I'm not offended, but I'd be worried about someone not familiar with the costume (or cosplay), seeing artificial brown skin, and tribal/native dress, and getting upset, offended or even aggressive.


__________________
13 Feb 2013 - 01:3397261
I guess in the end it comes down to recognising if your costume could offend people, and being prepared to accept the consequences if you do choose to wear it unaltered.

Equally with Nazi insignia for Hellsing costumes—for cosplayers in that situation, it's common sense to not travel to a convention with those articles on display. Making concessions like this is part of being respectful to those around you, and if you're not able to make them (for example, it's not easy to take off and reapply body paint in the same way you can quickly remove a Nazi armband, or to ensure that you're only seen by people who understand your costume) then you have to decide if you can handle any negative reactions responsibly, and if it's really worth it!


__________________
13 Feb 2013 - 02:0997262
Just did a relatively quick search -

I found another body painted Ifrit - female this time. Again she looks good and is wearing dark coloured tights to change the shade of her legs to mimic the body paint on her torso.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y95/Summonmaster/IfritShivaCosplay.jpg

Ifrit is a beast, he's furry, flamey and if you're white and not willing to fursuit, you're going to want to body paint. Would it have been better to wear a brown morph suit? Probably not.

I don't see why African dress should be singled out as a no-go, in perspective saying no to dressing up in cultural dress means no Kimono, no Geisha make up, no Chinese cosplay with black wigs imitating Asian hair, no Lederhosen, wooden clogs. No kilts or tartan if you're not Scottish and no arab dress either.

Hell, my older Nigerian friends oiled and braided my hair and dressed me up in African clothing and jewelry whenever they had the chance and pronounce me a Nubian Princess XD! Frankly they didn't consider me in their native dress offensive, even when I tried to make my own.
My mother's Indian friends gave her Saris to wear!

TBH as long as you don't go around with your face painted to resemble a Golly, I don't see the problem. Because let's face it, this is the kind of thing people are going to take offense at and this is what people visualize when they talk about "black face" - not brown body paint, dark foundation, tan or make up.




People have been re imagining characters into their own race for centuries. Look at all the incarnations of Jesus. He was a Jew, but you can find black versions, asian versions, white versions - you name the culture or colour and you'll find an image of Jesus looking like he comes from that country. So having a black girl cosplaying Sailor Jupitor is perfectly fine, and has plenty of precedent ... coming back to the OP. And people who do have a problem with it are completely uncultured asses who find their keyboard courage every once in a while because it's cool to say horrible things about people on anything associated with 4chan.


13 Feb 2013 - 05:1897264
Quote silver-vixi:
I don't see why African dress should be singled out as a no-go, in perspective saying no to dressing up in cultural dress means no Kimono, no Geisha make up, no Chinese cosplay with black wigs imitating Asian hair, no Lederhosen, wooden clogs. No kilts or tartan if you're not Scottish and no arab dress either.


I think what Pandora meant was that it's greater than the sum of its parts. Cultural dress on its own is not offensive, but it's not as simple as rationalising each element (costume, body paint, intent) separately and putting them together. If someone sees what they believe to be blackface, that character being in African-inspired tribal gear doesn't help the situation (think of the old stereotypical caricatures of cannibals). Geisha makeup on the other hand is part of traditional costume, so if it's being designed and applied sensitively as a result of research, I don't think anyone would take offence! All comes back to sensitive treatment of other cultures. (ie. Not doing 'slanty eyes'.)

Of course there's nothing wrong with your friends giving you Nigerian clothes and hair, or your mother wearing saris Those are just fashion styles, unless you're using them as part of a larger performance of mockery, which is definitely sounds like you weren't!

Quote silver-vixi:
So having a black girl cosplaying Sailor Jupitor is perfectly fine, and has plenty of precedent ... coming back to the OP. And people who do have a problem with it are completely uncultured asses who find their keyboard courage every once in a while because it's cool to say horrible things about people on anything associated with 4chan.


This, a thousand times over! Uncultured asses aside, the general response to that awesome Sailor Jupitor was that she was beautiful, and that race accuracy doesn't matter in the slightest! Hence I would feel hypocritical if I did not then apply the same rule to myself, should I choose to cosplay a character of another race! In that situation, the only people to be offended are the aforementioned uncultured asses, and who even cares what they think?


__________________
13 Feb 2013 - 07:4897265
Quote diphenhydramine:
I think what Pandora meant was that it's greater than the sum of its parts. Cultural dress on its own is not offensive, but it's not as simple as rationalising each element (costume, body paint, intent) separately and putting them together. If someone sees what they believe to be blackface, that character being in African-inspired tribal gear doesn't help the situation (think of the old stereotypical caricatures of cannibals).


This was exactly what I meant. Cheers!

There's probably the makings here of a good comedy sketch! Look at each individual aspect of a costume, point out the cultural significance, show respect for the source, and justify every element on its own.

The do a final reveal of some horrifcally-stereotyped racist caricature. :o


__________________
13 Feb 2013 - 10:5397269
Quote PandoraCaitiff:
Quote diphenhydramine:
I think what Pandora meant was that it's greater than the sum of its parts. Cultural dress on its own is not offensive, but it's not as simple as rationalising each element (costume, body paint, intent) separately and putting them together. If someone sees what they believe to be blackface, that character being in African-inspired tribal gear doesn't help the situation (think of the old stereotypical caricatures of cannibals).


This was exactly what I meant. Cheers!

There's probably the makings here of a good comedy sketch! Look at each individual aspect of a costume, point out the cultural significance, show respect for the source, and justify every element on its own.

The do a final reveal of some horrifcally-stereotyped racist caricature. :o


XD - Pandora, I figured but I over exaggerated to make a point.

Also, I like the way you think about the sketch - going to Ayacon?!

"And now presenting 'the sum of it's parts' - the Race Cosplay Debate Thread!"

--

diphenhydramine - *nod*, exactly there shouldn't be a double standard in this instance. Saying something like "It's ok to do this because he/she is black but it's not ok for this person to do the same because he/she is white" is a form of discrimination. Positive discrimination is as damaging to people as is plain 'ol discrimination. It puts people up on a pedestal which doesn't have to be there and gives people a reason to hate and find fault.

Applying one mode of thinking to yourself and another to someone else is as you said hypocritical, it can sound condescending too -

i.e. that black Sailor Venus is great, but I can't cosplay Princess Tiana because I'm white.

or

I cosplayed Mulan last year but I can't cosplay Princess Tiana because she's black.

At the Disney crowning of Princess Tiana, it was cute - there were little black girls in Tiana's outfit and little white girls dressed up like her too ( I believe they were chosen to stand with the Tiana-alike because they were birthday princesses =3).

Perhaps as adults we should take note? We get bogged down by these debates, told what we can't wear and what we can - hell we tell other people what they can and can't look like but perhaps we need to take a step back and say to ourselves, "is my hypersensitivity to race a result of that little bit of racism inside me, or the racism pushed on me by others telling me what I should think?".

We say a a lot that some one could get offended so we shouldn't do it, someone could get offended by me wearing a Tiana cosplay because I'm not black - point is, it's innocuous.

What's also innocuous is brown paint or what ever you choose so long as you're not going around acting like a prat attempting to fulfill a negative stereotype.

Respect goes both ways, what kind of person is it who starts being abusive and judgmental at someone, thinking they understand their motivations. Who does that reveal most?



Last edited by Jenivix (13 Feb 2013 - 10:54)
13 Feb 2013 - 11:5997272
Quote silver-vixi:
Also, I like the way you think about the sketch - going to Ayacon?!

"And now presenting 'the sum of it's parts' - the Race Cosplay Debate Thread!"


Sadly not, but feel free to take the idea and develop it


Quote silver-vixi:
Perhaps as adults we should take note? We get bogged down by these debates, told what we can't wear and what we can - hell we tell other people what they can and can't look like but perhaps we need to take a step back and say to ourselves, "is my hypersensitivity to race a result of that little bit of racism inside me, or the racism pushed on me by others telling me what I should think?"


Maybe. Normally I'd say a few seconds thought and a bit of common sense should stop most of the problem around the whole debate.

The problem is that there's a lot of tiny little things that are technically racist (or other forms of discrimination) that we take for granted because on their own they aren't really a problem. But when you get a young/naive person, from a sheltered background, in an echo-chamber like Tumblr, it can get a bit out of hand. And then the capslock screaming starts and terms like privilege and social justice get used pejoratively, and it becomes a big mess.


__________________
13 Feb 2013 - 12:0897273
I don't think anmyone on this thread said that a white person shouldn't cosplay a character of a different race, so I'm not sure where the suggestion of a double standard came from. I've cosplayed several japanese characters and I don't think that was offensive.

Discrimination is of course always wrong but its simply not equivalent when one group of people has been oppressed by another for centuries. The oppressor ridiculing the oppressed comes from a position of power.

Respect also means being aware of what might hurt someone else's feelings and trying to avoid doing that. Now there are people who want to get offended at things regardless of what you do but there are also genuine reasons for feelings of hurt. I don't think its difficult to ask yourself could what I'm wearing be misinterpreted as an racist stereotype (regardless of intent) and if so a) is it worth it and b) is there something I can do to minimise the potential to cause offense.


__________________
13 Feb 2013 - 15:2697276
Brb gonna dye my skin blue and take offense at all the Avatar cosplays.


13 Feb 2013 - 15:5197277
Quote JaeXD:
Brb gonna dye my skin blue and take offense at all the Avatar cosplays.


HOW DARE YOU SIR!

I'm half Zentraedi on my dad's side and I take great offence at that!


__________________

Last edited by PandoraCaitiff (13 Feb 2013 - 15:52)
13 Feb 2013 - 18:2697283
Quote PandoraCaitiff:
Quote JaeXD:
Brb gonna dye my skin blue and take offense at all the Avatar cosplays.


HOW DARE YOU SIR!

I'm half Zentraedi on my dad's side and I take great offence at that!


Interestingly, there is actually a rare medical condition that can turn your skin blue or grey called Argyria


Login to reply  Page: « < 2 of 3 > »