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09 Jan 2013 - 12:3895721
In many cultures not just our own there is a tradition of men paying homage to the female form.

May not be as subtle in some cultures but it's there alright. In India... (inb4 recent event we do not want to open up that jar of shite because we'll be here till the next ice age, and I am WELL aware and disgusted by the sexual discrimination because it is bottomless and has no end yet I have been saying it for years and it's one of the many things I deteste about India and Indian culture that factors me in to being the way I am) .. There are men who dress up like women and "act" as such, I say that in quotation marks because this is somewhat of a characature and not debating if that's good or bad (yet I hate it anyway) but that it exists and it's their (stupid ugly shitty) way of paying homage to the female form, I expect they do it for a Goddess, the knobheads.. altering their already annoying voices (the men) they wind up sounding like the aliens from Mars Attacks.


I like to not cosplay my gender, in fact I enjoy characters that are almost genderless whether they be artificial lifeforms in the shape of a male or masked so it could be any gender playing that person. However this is probably a wishful thought since my own physical form betrays me and it's pretty obvious I'm a dude.. or a muscular girl with small hips and muscle where the boobs would be. Muscleboobs.

Sexism seems irrelevelent to me, it's all a denomination of the same species and as such prone to the same stupidity in the way a friend of mine who is FTM asked the exact same question everyone dimwitted says when I tell them where I work is open 24/7; "Monday to Friday?".


09 Jan 2013 - 14:2395722
I think that all we can do is try and educate people. Untill society as a whole changes there are always going to be people who are bothered by things that don't affect them (pretty much like everyone I've ever heard speak out against gay marriage). I guess other than that its just important for MtF cosplayers to bear in mind when they hear negative comments, that it is not an issue with them but that the person making the comments having unresolved issues.


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10 Jan 2013 - 06:2995743
Hi
Some of you may have seen me at some of the comic cons
I dress as either supergirl or wonder woman.
I dress like this so I will be noticed for what I am doing That is -- I am collecting for Muscular Dystrophy, its something my son is dying from. He asked me one day to be wonder woman at a comic con and raise money. I was given permission, and my wife decided that if I do it I do it right. Loss of body hair, painted this and plucked that etc etc etc etc. I raise money for the charity, 3040 pounds in this last year . I have lost 13 stone in body weight and for the first time care how i look. I have learned a lot about women and my wife.
At comic cons i will get great responces and bad responces, from men and women. People will have opinions.
The worst responce I had was at a comic con where I had just lost my 13th stone ,the wife had me completely dressed as wonder woman, over an hour with make up and nails. Everybody who saw me said well done, the film and tv stars came off their tables to have a picture taken with me, I was suddenly stopped by a lady dressed as amy pond -told me I had not put any effort in and how stupid I looked. Thankfully before my wife and son responded the crowd around us just started to boo her. Do what you enjoy , have fun , learn from it, respect others.


10 Jan 2013 - 10:3195744
Quote superwondergirl:
HiI raise money for the charity, 3040 pounds in this last year . I have lost 13 stone in body weight and for the first time care how i look.


Congrats! Thats also a great ratio of pounds lost and pounds gained

Quote superwondergirl:
I was suddenly stopped by a lady dressed as amy pond -told me I had not put any effort in and how stupid I looked. Thankfully before my wife and son responded the crowd around us just started to boo her.


Wow. That's just really rude! How horrible!

EDIT: Just wanted to clarify that the Amy Pond cosplayer was rude. The Boo-ing seems entirely reasonable in the circumstances

Out of interest, if it had not been for the motivation of helping your son and other's with MD, do you think you'd have been able to overcome the stigma, and crossplayed just for yourself? Or do you think you would have been put off dressing as Wonder Woman in public because of the negative attention?


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Last edited by PandoraCaitiff (10 Jan 2013 - 15:47)
10 Jan 2013 - 10:4095745
Quote superwondergirl:
Hi
Some of you may have seen me at some of the comic cons
I dress as either supergirl or wonder woman.
I dress like this so I will be noticed for what I am doing That is -- I am collecting for Muscular Dystrophy, its something my son is dying from. He asked me one day to be wonder woman at a comic con and raise money. I was given permission, and my wife decided that if I do it I do it right. Loss of body hair, painted this and plucked that etc etc etc etc. I raise money for the charity, 3040 pounds in this last year . I have lost 13 stone in body weight and for the first time care how i look. I have learned a lot about women and my wife.
At comic cons i will get great responces and bad responces, from men and women. People will have opinions.
The worst responce I had was at a comic con where I had just lost my 13th stone ,the wife had me completely dressed as wonder woman, over an hour with make up and nails. Everybody who saw me said well done, the film and tv stars came off their tables to have a picture taken with me, I was suddenly stopped by a lady dressed as amy pond -told me I had not put any effort in and how stupid I looked. Thankfully before my wife and son responded the crowd around us just started to boo her. Do what you enjoy , have fun , learn from it, respect others.


It's amazing to see someone go to that sort of effort both for love of a character and more importantly for a very worthy cause. What that woman did was awful, it is never okay to humiliate someone else like that but I'm glad that the crowd responded with you. You obviously really care about what you're doing, which for me is by far the most important reason for doing it.

Like Pandora I'm curious as to what made you choose that character and whether you would have thought about crossplaying before you were asked to by your son?


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10 Jan 2013 - 13:4195753
To the last two responcess I have always raised money for a charity. Especially for children so i have always done something. Costumes are a great way to have fun, get attention, show off,. I really hav'nt thought of it any other way. I would probably have worn a costume to comic con .


10 Jan 2013 - 13:4995754
I had chosen wonder woman because she is the first comic i ever read and one of my son's favorite characters.



Last edited by superwondergirl (10 Jan 2013 - 13:57) Reason: too much info
12 Jan 2013 - 21:2695837
i personally have no issue with people crossplaying i do it myself but im a girl so i could see it being eaiser

i have male friends who wanna crossplay im for them doing it


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12 Jan 2013 - 22:3295839
I think there's a couple of reasons (which have already been touched on, but I'll throw in my pennies worth).

Male Androgyny & Female to Male Cross dressing in media, manga, games, and anime is commonplace. Look at the beautiful boys (bishounen) phenomena, the number of young boys / un-developed boys & the mainstream accepted cross-dressing, for example Takarazuka and the host clubs where women dress up as men in order to entertain other women. There are also numerous anime where women are guised as men or take more masculine roles e.g. Utena. It's not unusual to see masculine women in media either, gunslinger girl plays with stereo types, what about mainstream games where you have feminine looking women with male mannerisms, how about women in military uniforms? There's also a large number of tomboys, hell, even Enid Blyton gave us a tomboy character in The Famous Five. In addition to this Japanese males in general have more of a average Western girl's physique (boobs excluded!!XD) making FTM cosplay of a Japanese character much easier.

Another point is that a woman dressed as a man doesn't become more dangerous, she doesn't become a lion in lamb's clothing for example. She's quantifiable.

Men may also be insecure about finding other men attractive. People don't want to question themselves because if you can't trust who you think you are lots of other things get doubted, it's easier just to dismiss things.

Women on the other hand may not like it for a very similar reason i.e. She may find the man attractive but finds it weird that there are feminine features attached to the man. Or... something like that.

It's also pretty hard for men to pass as women anyway, sure, there are some guys who pull of some amazing traps but I find for the most part these men are either pretty feminine already or quite young.

Usually older guys (esp. Western guys), I guess because of the way they age, when they cosplay Male to Female it's rarely convincing and there's always something a little "off". A fit older woman however won't have a problem passing for a slender male.

Personally, I don't particularly like MTF cosplay, but I can appreciate good cosplay and effort. And you know, I don't think that's a bad thing. Everyone is entitled to their opinions even if that opinion isn't popular - that being said nobody should intentionally be vile to another person, but they don't have to agree with what they are doing either.


12 Jan 2013 - 23:0495841
I've met mtf who are really nice but timid and entirely non-threatening so the lion in lamb's clothing thing couldn't be further from the truth. I sort of agree that there are ways it may be trickier to pull off mtf than ftm but on the other hand with effort it can be done really well, and surely that makes it all the more impressive when it is done well?


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12 Jan 2013 - 23:4395846
Quote Carmina:
I've met mtf who are really nice but timid and entirely non-threatening so the lion in lamb's clothing thing couldn't be further from the truth. I sort of agree that there are ways it may be trickier to pull off mtf than ftm but on the other hand with effort it can be done really well, and surely that makes it all the more impressive when it is done well?


I was just putting ideas forward that I've come across. I'm not saying it's true or false, just that a woman is almost always thought to be quantifiable. However my boyfriend agrees he's known enough predatory men who would do this or have done it.

As I said, I can appreciate effort and good cosplay. I've seen a number of excellent mtf cosplays which are quite frankly better than 99% of the female cosplays of the same character. Unfortunately, it's rarely done well and the result is generally rocky horror.


13 Jan 2013 - 00:1695849
Quote silver-vixi:

I was just putting ideas forward that I've come across. I'm not saying it's true or false, just that a woman is almost always thought to be quantifiable. However my boyfriend agrees he's known enough predatory men who would do this or have done it.


I'm sure there are some men who would do it but I'm not sure its most. I'm not necessarily disagreeing that there are some people who might think its true, just putting forward why I think that it usually isn't.

Quote silver-vixi:

As I said, I can appreciate effort and good cosplay. I've seen a number of excellent mtf cosplays which are quite frankly better than 99% of the female cosplays of the same character. Unfortunately, it's rarely done well and the result is generally rocky horror.


I don't think good mtf cosplayers are that hard to find. There are plenty on this site. Anyway even those that aren't that convincing, so what? That isn't a good reason to be stigmatised (not saying that you are the one doing this but since you're presenting this as a reason that mtf cosplayers might invite stigma, I'm putting to you that this is unfair).


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13 Jan 2013 - 00:5095850
I think there are a lot of societal expectations which you have to take into consideration, I'm not just talking about mtf being stigmatised just because it's mtf. There's also the pretty much accepted cross dressing LIKE rocky horror, or for charity stunts AND the gay pride events. MTF cosplayers have to stand up along side this whether they are gay or not and make a convincing cosplay. There are accepted stigmas and appearances which are embraced by sections of society which it concerns most i.e. the gay community.

Sections of the gay community (i.e. those that dress up for the gay pride marches) do it for the reaction, they do things to shock and cause a stir and enjoy it, otherwise they wouldn't do it. In this way, mainstream society has been conditioned to respond to this kind of dressing up / cross dressing / cross playing in a particular way.

A couple of the poster here have said they do it for reasons similar to this i.e. to shock, to get people to think. However we are conditioned to think in a certain way, we are conditioned even to "double think" ourselves into thinking it's ok with a certain reasoning. So much so that if someone dislikes it and voices their opinion they are also stigmatised for being someone who disagrees.

Lastly, people will always focus on things outside the norm, mtf crossplay, obese cosplayers, anorexic cosplayers, cosplayers who have body modifications, cosplayers with physical limitations / disabilities. This can either be positive (more exposure for a mtf cosplayer because it's so good or for a disabled cosplayer) or negative (making fun of obesity or badly done MTF), if you don't want to stand out, if you don't want to be stigmatised for one reason or another don't step out of line. If you do step out of line be ready for attention either one way or another.

In this way, if you do a bad cosplay expect some stigma, but if you are crossplaying make sure you're good, because people won't give you any quarter just because you're cross dressing.



Last edited by Jenivix (13 Jan 2013 - 00:51)
13 Jan 2013 - 14:0195860
Quote silver-vixi:
So much so that if someone dislikes it and voices their opinion they are also stigmatised for being someone who disagrees.


I think you have a right not to like it, just as much as I have a right to say that I think your stated reasons for disliking it are not well founded. None of this is being stigmatised. And if you're unconvinced by my arguments you have a right still not to like it but just because you don't like it isn't a reason for someone not to do it. You might not find mtf aesthetically pleasing but that really should be a matter of personal taste.

Quote silver-vixi:
Lastly, people will always focus on things outside the norm, mtf crossplay, obese cosplayers, anorexic cosplayers, cosplayers who have body modifications, cosplayers with physical limitations / disabilities. This can either be positive (more exposure for a mtf cosplayer because it's so good or for a disabled cosplayer) or negative (making fun of obesity or badly done MTF), if you don't want to stand out, if you don't want to be stigmatised for one reason or another don't step out of line. If you do step out of line be ready for attention either one way or another.

In this way, if you do a bad cosplay expect some stigma, but if you are crossplaying make sure you're good, because people won't give you any quarter just because you're cross dressing.


See I think bullying someone else is unacceptable regardless. I see those sights that ridicule "fat" cosplayers and I think they're absolutely awful. It sounds like you think that its those cosplayer's fault for drawing attention to themselves, rather than the bottom-dwellers who run those sort of sites. Moreover I think it is morally wrong to discourage someone from stepping out from societal norms. If we all stuck to what society expected of us we'd never have had women in the workplace or gay people who are able to open express themselves, thus society would be less rich for it. I cosplay male characters a lot and have never had negative attention from them. Part of this is because a lot of women fought long and hard for my freedom of expression. No one should ever have to experience negative attention just for expressing themselves. For those that are made uncomfortable by mtf cosplayers, surely it would be easy enough to leave well alone? Bullying can be hurtful and damaging but not being able to express oneself can be stifling and equally damaging.


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13 Jan 2013 - 20:3595875
Quote silver-vixi:
Unfortunately, it's rarely done well and the result is generally rocky horror.


This could be selective perception. When it's done particularly well, you might not even notice its crossplay. I remember stopping a slim, busty, Celty Sturson cosplayer to ask what her costume was from, and being surprised to hear a man's voice from behind the motorbike helmet.


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13 Jan 2013 - 21:0395876
Quote PandoraCaitiff:
Quote silver-vixi:
Unfortunately, it's rarely done well and the result is generally rocky horror.


This could be selective perception. When it's done particularly well, you might not even notice its crossplay. I remember stopping a slim, busty, Celty Sturson cosplayer to ask what her costume was from, and being surprised to hear a man's voice from behind the motorbike helmet.


That's true. I have seen some brilliant MTF cosplay:

Excellent MTF

The effort put into it is... well incredible and puts many female cosplayers to shame (i.e. myself) with the impeccable make up and accuracy. This kind of effort and the efforts of some of our MTF cosplayers here on cosplay island should be applauded due to their dedication.

EDIT:

Like with anything, if you stick your head above the parapet prepare to get shot. It doesn't mean it's right, it's just what happens. I don't agree with bullies but I'm a realist, I don't like certain things but I'm not going to make fun of someone for it. By that same token it's also a decent thing to do to warn other people or to say to someone, a friend maybe "hey, I don't think this will look good on you, you could try something better for you". Sometimes the kindest thing is to tell the truth while being supportive, instead of giving kind but misguided support.

I will now bid this thread adieu, feminism is creeping in.



Last edited by Jenivix (13 Jan 2013 - 21:25)
13 Jan 2013 - 22:2095879
Quote silver-vixi:
Like with anything, if you stick your head above the parapet prepare to get shot. It doesn't mean it's right, it's just what happens. I don't agree with bullies but I'm a realist, I don't like certain things but I'm not going to make fun of someone for it. By that same token it's also a decent thing to do to warn other people or to say to someone, a friend maybe "hey, I don't think this will look good on you, you could try something better for you". Sometimes the kindest thing is to tell the truth while being supportive, instead of giving kind but misguided support.

I will now bid this thread adieu, feminism is creeping in.


Well since she seems to have left the thread I'll just say that I'm happy that MTF cosplayers don't feel restricted from doing what they want by societal norms and will always support their right to do so.


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13 Jan 2013 - 22:5595883
I find I'm a lot more confident when crossplaying, and I'm always happy to offer advice and encouragement to anyone thinking about crossplay.

So to continue the parapet metaphor, picture me standing up there in full view, waving to the enemy, and calling down, "Its really fun up here, you should try! Mind your step and remember to duck!"


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13 Jan 2013 - 23:2595885
Hey, I'd like to weigh in here if I may. If it makes a difference I'll start by saying I am a straight male who has crossplayed (as Lightning.)

I don't think men wearing womens clothes is looked down upon because women are deemed inferior. I think the people who said it's more to do with homophobia were dead on. MOST straight men aren't overly comfortable with anything that brings their sexuality into question. Especially discovering that hot girl they were checking out from behind has a mans face. It's lame but it's still mostly true.
I'll also say that I did this with a friend (dressed as Serah) and if I'm 100% honest I don't think I would have done it on my own because I did feel pretty self concious. I don't think I'm too comfortable with being checked out weirdly enough. Also, I truly hate wearing wigs so that went against it. Being guys we also found we had to really think about sitting in a skirt, so we had more to think about then normal. And I don't like make-up. Although I have to admit, skirts are actually quite comfortable. I wouldn't rule out doing it again, but don't really have plans to for the moment.

The other thing and I apologise if this sounds sexist but I think women can just get away with much more. I mean appearance wise. Seriously, for some reason a girl can dress as a guy and for it kinda works. I know there are good male crossplayers out there but most guys completely lack the grace women seem to naturally have and so someone like me crossplaying doesn't look natural because they are out of their comfort zone. I mean, like I said with the skirt thing. You watch most girls sit and they tend to cross their legs even in trousers. Guys tend to sit with their legs apart so we were definitely more concious of ourselves. Also, I have terrible stubble so even just after I shave I'm quite blatantly a guy.

So in summery, that's what I think it is. A mixture of homophobia in men (in general, not all men) and that women are pretty adaptable in the fashion stakes.


13 Jan 2013 - 23:5095889
That really is a great crossplay (the Blue Rose posted by Silver Vixi). I'm just confused as to how he managed an open bust. I mean, I know it's incredibly easy to create a fake bust with either stuffing or silicone prosthetics, but under a shirt, where they are covered up. How on earth did he manage this and make it look like his body?


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14 Jan 2013 - 00:1495891
Quote Cobranose:
I mean, like I said with the skirt thing. You watch most girls sit and they tend to cross their legs even in trousers. Guys tend to sit with their legs apart so we were definitely more concious of ourselves.


With that, I don't think it's natural grace but rather how we're told to act. Look at children; all children sit with their legs open most the time, but the girls get told "no, you must close your legs" as, typically, girls are in skirts and it will flash their knickers, which is bad. So, from an early age we're told to "close our legs" when we sit XD

Silver-vixi, with most of your stuff I disagree. Whilst yes, you can expect fire if you stick your head out the parapet, but nothing will change if you don't do it. I'd much rather come under fire than stick my head in the ground or hide away.

As to saying "you'd suit this more" - yeah, I've done that and I'll do that, but more on a character personality or if someone specifically asks me about it. I wouldn't say to someone "no, you're a guy and should cosplay guys" or "your shape doesn't suit that character" - in a lot of cases, no-one's shape suits characters as they're over the top. At the end of the day, your weight, ethnicity, gender, disabilities or modifications. Why should only the attractive people be allowed to cosplay? That is, essentially, what you're saying after all.

As to the "I will now bid this thread adieu, feminism is creeping in." ??? WTF? I'm sorry that people want both genders to have equal opptunities, which is what feminism is.


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Ayacon Plans
14 Jan 2013 - 01:3095894
Quote SamD465:
That really is a great crossplay (the Blue Rose posted by Silver Vixi). I'm just confused as to how he managed an open bust. I mean, I know it's incredibly easy to create a fake bust with either stuffing or silicone prosthetics, but under a shirt, where they are covered up. How on earth did he manage this and make it look like his body?


While I'm not 100% convinced the pics aren't of a twin sister, or slightly tweaked with computer trickery, you can hide the join of prosthetics with liquid latex and makeup. You can also do clever tricks like hiding the seams with clothing and jewellery


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14 Jan 2013 - 10:3495900
I thought so. I guess we'd need to see an unedited photo from a con or something.


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14 Jan 2013 - 11:0895901
Quote NixieThePixie:
Quote Cobranose:
I mean, like I said with the skirt thing. You watch most girls sit and they tend to cross their legs even in trousers. Guys tend to sit with their legs apart so we were definitely more concious of ourselves.


With that, I don't think it's natural grace but rather how we're told to act. Look at children; all children sit with their legs open most the time, but the girls get told "no, you must close your legs" as, typically, girls are in skirts and it will flash their knickers, which is bad. So, from an early age we're told to "close our legs" when we sit XD

Silver-vixi, with most of your stuff I disagree. Whilst yes, you can expect fire if you stick your head out the parapet, but nothing will change if you don't do it. I'd much rather come under fire than stick my head in the ground or hide away.

As to saying "you'd suit this more" - yeah, I've done that and I'll do that, but more on a character personality or if someone specifically asks me about it. I wouldn't say to someone "no, you're a guy and should cosplay guys" or "your shape doesn't suit that character" - in a lot of cases, no-one's shape suits characters as they're over the top. At the end of the day, your weight, ethnicity, gender, disabilities or modifications. Why should only the attractive people be allowed to cosplay? That is, essentially, what you're saying after all.

As to the "I will now bid this thread adieu, feminism is creeping in." ??? WTF? I'm sorry that people want both genders to have equal opptunities, which is what feminism is.


I agree with much of what you say. I think that there's also the fact that its the people who are being negative that should be encouraged to change their behaviour, not the person who's stepping outside societal norms.

As to the feminism thing- unfortunately there's a number of people on the internet who have convinced themselves its the root of all evils, to the extent that they won't even have a discussion with someone who claims to support feminist views (and then probably go on to claim that its the feminists that are irrational).

As to the is it sexism or is it homophobia, probably a bit of both. It's not like the two can be interrelated either, as there is a sereotype that says gay men are effeminate (which isn't necessarilly true).


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14 Jan 2013 - 13:4195906
Quote SamD465:
I thought so. I guess we'd need to see an unedited photo from a con or something.


I'd just like to see a clear full-body picture!

Also bear in mind cosplay for a photoshoot with limited picture angles, and a make-up artist on hand, is very different from a costume that has to be moved around in for a masquerade, or survive a crowds as a floor costume!


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