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17 Jul 2012 - 22:0087823
I'd like to get people's view on this! "Sexism in cosplay!"
http://storify.com/cnstoker/cosplayers-are-geeks-too

This article was written by someone who took offence to a few tweets Simon Pegg wrote. I follow him on twitter and quite frankly wasn't bothered but maybe that's just me! I wanted to get opinions from other people who will be unbiased!

The leia thing might just be an inside joke between them. I don't feel like he was personally objectifying all women! But meh that's just my opinion!


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17 Jul 2012 - 22:2887824
Here comes a hornets nest...

All I can really say that most of the time it comes from low grade sites... *cough*Kotaku*cough*


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17 Jul 2012 - 22:3887825
I don't think that they're the most offensive comments in the world. On the other hand it is true that it was sort of objectifying them by complimenting female cosplayers for their sexiness rather than the quality of the cosplay. I had a conversation a while back about female cosplayers who choose a character primarily for the sex appeal (not that everyone who chooses to cosplay a character in a revealing costume does so for that reason of course) and whether this might play in to some underlying sexist attitudes. I don't think that by and large the UK cosplay scene is particularly sexist though.


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17 Jul 2012 - 23:0787830
Meh, the cosplay community is sexist, but that's because society in general is sexist.

All I'll say is I sure as heck don't want to be compared to a doughnut. That second comment was gross and made me shudder.

I think in general female cosplayers are valued more for sexiness than effort or quality of a costume or their ability to suit a costume, which kinda sucks. But it's all part of a sexist society.

Personally I don't know any dudes who view female cosplayers as pieces of meat, or indeed, doughnuts; they've grown out of that. I just hope everyone does!


18 Jul 2012 - 00:2787836
Quote Carmina:
I don't think that they're the most offensive comments in the world. On the other hand it is true that it was sort of objectifying them by complimenting female cosplayers for their sexiness rather than the quality of the cosplay. I had a conversation a while back about female cosplayers who choose a character primarily for the sex appeal (not that everyone who chooses to cosplay a character in a revealing costume does so for that reason of course) and whether this might play in to some underlying sexist attitudes. I don't think that by and large the UK cosplay scene is particularly sexist though.


I think you've got a great point there! I think if that had been said to him he'd have been much quicker to apologise, which he did eventually! I guess it's one of those awkward situations.

I just don't want it to get to the point where guys feel they can't say a girl looks good in cosplay for fear of being called sexist. Although the quality of the cosplay is definitely a more satisfying compliment than just being referred to as "hot" or the like!


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18 Jul 2012 - 08:1187842
I think it's odd how so far the focus has been on woman and guys essentially objectifying them, etc. Is this no different than normal anyway?

Is it that shocking? No. Is it nice? Not really. Will it ever stop happening? Don't be silly.

Face it, as long as there are sexually attractive girls in skimpy clothing (and not even skimpy clothing) there will always be guys making "inappropriate" comments.

And actually, I don't really care about that side.

I think male cosplayers have it a lot worse off outside the cosplay community. Yeah, girls get objectified, but guys get a lot of hate and get the shit ripped out of them for it.

For example, a guy posted a really fantastic image of Squall's gunblade online, that was to scale and he's hand carved it all and such. There were loads of comments along the lines of "he's protecting his virginity" and "oh he's got no life" - and that was just from a prop!

Another instance I have is seeing a fantastic Buzz Lightyear cosplay. Proper "Wow" stuff. Again "To virginity, and beyond!" stuff! These are the guys that'll make a comment like "Oh, I want to sow my viking roots with her!" in regards to a Skyrim female cosplayer.

I wouldn't say Sexism is in cosplay. I think it's more the people who know nothing about it who may or may not be sexist.

Also, I think that girl over-reacted to the extreme. It won't effect girls in the "geek" community - and anyway, they get objectified by the male geeks as it stands, simply from buying a comic book, or a certain video game.


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18 Jul 2012 - 11:0387847
Quote NixieThePixie:
I think it's odd how so far the focus has been on woman and guys essentially objectifying them, etc. Is this no different than normal anyway?

Is it that shocking? No. Is it nice? Not really. Will it ever stop happening? Don't be silly.


Probably true. But I'd like to think it'll lessen one day. Definitely won't get any better if you believe that!

I think it's more people that don't know about cosplay that insult guys who do it, but girls get insulted both within the community and out of it. Not trying to start a competition, that's just what I think.

Quote NixieThePixie:
Also, I think that girl over-reacted to the extreme. It won't effect girls in the "geek" community - and anyway, they get objectified by the male geeks as it stands, simply from buying a comic book, or a certain video game.


I think she did over-react but I do know girls who have seen examples of sexism in cosplay - one being a group of guys - one asked a Ms Marvel to pose so the others could take photos from behind - and they've sworn they wouldn't ever cosplay because of that. And idk, girls do get objectified whatever they do, but that doesn't make it okay.

Sorry for the ranting, I don't want to start a fight, but I wish the cosplay community was a place where I'm scared to cosplay Power Girl


18 Jul 2012 - 11:1087848
The people in the cosplay community are make up of people in normal society. We are not a seperate bubble.

So sexism, will exist if it exists in society.

Hell, I know I get objectified when I show some skin. But if I got wound up about other people having a problem with it I'd never get round to finishing my delicious coffee I have here.


18 Jul 2012 - 11:2487850
the person who made the tweets an blog overeacted


18 Jul 2012 - 11:4287853
Quote JaeXD:


Hell, I know I get objectified when I show some skin. But if I got wound up about other people having a problem with it I'd never get round to finishing my delicious coffee I have here.


I'm sure the being objectified thing does happen to men too but fundamentally it is something that disproportionately affects women. This can make some people nervous about cosplaying certain characters for fear of being harassed or getting the sort of attention that makes them feel uncomfortable (and lets be fair this is going to be more true of some events than others).

I do sort of agree that the blogger did undermine her own point by coming across as angry rather than trying to reason with him though and explaining her points.


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18 Jul 2012 - 12:2887855
Quote JaeXD:
The people in the cosplay community are make up of people in normal society. We are not a seperate bubble.

So sexism, will exist if it exists in society.


thats it in a nutshell - simple as that


18 Jul 2012 - 13:1587860
Cosplay is a hobby that primarily focusses on what you look like so of course there are going to be people that objectify cosplayers.

HOWEVER

It is NOT the same proportions as it is in society, it's MORE equal tbh. In society, it is mainly women who are objectified. In cosplay, it's more equal.

Spend a week on tumblr after having followed a mixed bunch of cosplayers. For every picture of a half naked picture with a crass caption, there are just as many pictures of half-naked males with captions about ovaries exploding etc.

And that is because cosplay is predominantly a "LOOK AT ME!" hobby. Whether you choose for it to be or not.


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18 Jul 2012 - 13:1987862
Quote Carmina:
Quote JaeXD:


Hell, I know I get objectified when I show some skin. But if I got wound up about other people having a problem with it I'd never get round to finishing my delicious coffee I have here.


I'm sure the being objectified thing does happen to men too but fundamentally it is something that disproportionately affects women. This can make some people nervous about cosplaying certain characters for fear of being harassed or getting the sort of attention that makes them feel uncomfortable (and lets be fair this is going to be more true of some events than others).


With the growing tide of equality and confidence in both sexes, it's only a matter of time before the disproportion dissipates. Men get harrased in cosplay maybe not as much as girls but it's growing close. 20 years ago sexism was much more commonplace and stronger, compared to now when it's regarded as a social crime.

Given these two points in time, we can extrapolate that in the very near future both sexes will have no ground to stand on for special treatment.

Personally, I can't wait. We're all biological meat machines that grind up animal and plant matter to sustian ourselves, squirting distorted air at each other to communicate and throwing around DNA all willy-nilly to copulate.

Minor differences, in the grand scale of things.

Good gravy, this coffee is good. Guatamalan, dang.


18 Jul 2012 - 13:3887863
@Jae

I must say you've kind of lost me. Are you arguing that sexual harassment is equally as common between men and women? I very much doubt that any statistics would support your view. Nor would I say that not wanting to be made to feel unduly uncomfortable is asking for "special treatment".

Now speaking of coffee...


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18 Jul 2012 - 14:3787867
Quote Carmina:
@Jae

I must say you've kind of lost me. Are you arguing that sexual harassment is equally as common between men and women?


Of course not Carmina, I'm saying that in the near future it will be.

The present is influenced by the past, yet the future is inevitable. What does that mean? It means find me at the next con and I'll get you a coffee.


18 Jul 2012 - 16:3187874
Quote quixoticschlemiel:
Quote NixieThePixie:
I think it's odd how so far the focus has been on woman and guys essentially objectifying them, etc. Is this no different than normal anyway?

Is it that shocking? No. Is it nice? Not really. Will it ever stop happening? Don't be silly.


Probably true. But I'd like to think it'll lessen one day. Definitely won't get any better if you believe that!

I think it's more people that don't know about cosplay that insult guys who do it, but girls get insulted both within the community and out of it. Not trying to start a competition, that's just what I think.


Sorry, I wrote that just after a 12 hour night shift. I was a tad on the cranky side. My main point though is that sexism and objectification of women (or men) won't go simply because it's sexual attraction pays a very important part. I don't know if it'll lessen, just that it'll become "equal" thus giving it the impression that it's lessened since it's not just guys going "Oh yeah, I want me a piece of THAT!" There never gonna get it, they're just idiots voicing off.

I get what you mean in regards to what happens with girls, but it's just a matter of letting it bounce off. Yeah, it's really irritating, but most guys are just sounding off and being idiots, like I said. I think it's more the bitchy comments in cosplay which hurt a lot more... IMO

Quote quixoticschlemiel:

Quote NixieThePixie:
Also, I think that girl over-reacted to the extreme. It won't effect girls in the "geek" community - and anyway, they get objectified by the male geeks as it stands, simply from buying a comic book, or a certain video game.


I think she did over-react but I do know girls who have seen examples of sexism in cosplay - one being a group of guys - one asked a Ms Marvel to pose so the others could take photos from behind - and they've sworn they wouldn't ever cosplay because of that. And idk, girls do get objectified whatever they do, but that doesn't make it okay.

Sorry for the ranting, I don't want to start a fight, but I wish the cosplay community was a place where I'm scared to cosplay Power Girl


See, to me there is a difference between comments like Simon Pegg's and then trying to get girls to do overtly sexy poses or trying to get an... "interesting" shot. Whilst I view comments as just comments, anything more than that is perverse. I don't think the two should be lumped in the same category.

It also depends on the "level" of comment. Simon Pegg's were just... IDK I was completely unbothered by it. But comments that are just needlessly graphic or overtly sexual I would understand why people would get upset with that.

As to Power Girl. I think you should just go for it. Go as a group, and it should be fine ^_^

Also, I think as long as people let it really upset and stop them doing the hobby they like, then it's kinda letting people like that win and get the better of them.


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Last edited by NixieThePixie (18 Jul 2012 - 16:34)
18 Jul 2012 - 17:1587877
Quote NixieThePixie:

Sorry, I wrote that just after a 12 hour night shift. I was a tad on the cranky side. My main point though is that sexism and objectification of women (or men) won't go simply because it's sexual attraction pays a very important part. I don't know if it'll lessen, just that it'll become "equal" thus giving it the impression that it's lessened since it's not just guys going "Oh yeah, I want me a piece of THAT!" There never gonna get it, they're just idiots voicing off.

I get what you mean in regards to what happens with girls, but it's just a matter of letting it bounce off. Yeah, it's really irritating, but most guys are just sounding off and being idiots, like I said. I think it's more the bitchy comments in cosplay which hurt a lot more... IMO


Fair enough I think in general a lot of con-goers need to remember those things called manners.

Quote NixieThePixie:

See, to me there is a difference between comments like Simon Pegg's and then trying to get girls to do overtly sexy poses or trying to get an... "interesting" shot. Whilst I view comments as just comments, anything more than that is perverse. I don't think the two should be lumped in the same category.

It also depends on the "level" of comment. Simon Pegg's were just... IDK I was completely unbothered by it. But comments that are just needlessly graphic or overtly sexual I would understand why people would get upset with that.

As to Power Girl. I think you should just go for it. Go as a group, and it should be fine ^_^

Also, I think as long as people let it really upset and stop them doing the hobby they like, then it's kinda letting people like that win and get the better of them.


I think comments and those sort of actions stem from the same thing and whilst one is obviously a lot worse, both are not pleasant. And Simon Pegg's comment made me really uncomfortable. It's great that lots of people aren't bothered by it! No-one ever wants to be upset and if people get hurt, well, it's not really their fault. Some people are more affected by things than others and idk it would be great if some of my friends felt more comfortable with cosplaying just because someone had kept a thought to themselves. I'm glad that the majority of people weren't upset and I think the blogger girl over-reacted - the only part that bothered me was the comparision to food. Ew.

Oh, I'm definitely doing Peej, I love her too much not to! But I can't go with a group, which is a tad scary. I just hope people will be polite!


18 Jul 2012 - 17:1787878
Quote JaeXD:
Quote Carmina:
@Jae

I must say you've kind of lost me. Are you arguing that sexual harassment is equally as common between men and women?


Of course not Carmina, I'm saying that in the near future it will be.


No offence, but wouldn't it be better if sexual harassment wasn't anywhere near as common as it is for all genders? Bit unrealistic maybe, but better than widespread everyday harassment for everyone @_@


18 Jul 2012 - 18:5287882
I know this isn't a reference to the cosplay community I'm about to make but guys on the objectification front... have you ever encountered a group of women on a hen party. They seriously become animals!

Back to the subject though, I'm gonna play devils advocate. I don't think Simon Pegg was comparing them to actual donuts, he was reffering to the sound Homer Simpson makes when thinking about donuts which is a kinda "mmm" sound. To be honest, that may be actually worse in your opinion but I just think the comment was about the sound not the food.

That girl was over-reacting. Thing is, like it or not that Leia costume is an overtly sexual costume. The whole point she was wearing it in the film was because she was captured by some aliens who wanted to ogle over her. There's no getting away from that fact and I don't doubt the girls wearing it were aware of the sexual overtones. I'm not saying that the story about the Ms. Marvel girl who was tricked into posing for a photo from behind is ok because that was quite clearly wrong. And I'm not saying I agree with overtly sexual comments because I don't.
But the fact is both men and women do have sexual urges. Do they have to act upon it, no. Is that an excuse to make a girl feel uncomfortable, no.
But at the same time, I have female friends who cosplay predominantly as male characters because most females in anime are scantily clad. There's no denying alot of these characters are designed to be overtly sexual.

I'm not to sure where I was going with this now, got destracted and lost my thread.
I think people should feel free to dress as whatever they want but let's be honest here. We are talking about events where you can buy Yauie (which I can't spell), mouse mats with breasts and long pillows with scantily clad anime girls on.

I think it's wrong that people should feel uncomfortable in what costume they wear. I think some people should be better mannered and more mindful of what they say and the effect it has on people.
I don't know if there is sexism specifically in cosplay but there's definitely sexual objectification at the events cosplay tends to be associated with.


18 Jul 2012 - 19:2787883
Quote Cobranose:

Back to the subject though, I'm gonna play devils advocate. I don't think Simon Pegg was comparing them to actual donuts, he was reffering to the sound Homer Simpson makes when thinking about donuts which is a kinda "mmm" sound. To be honest, that may be actually worse in your opinion but I just think the comment was about the sound not the food.


Still pretty gross. Still got that aspect of treating girls like actual pieces of meat. If a dude looked at me and licked his lips/made a "mmm" noise I'd be very creeped out and spend the day feeling awful. Have you ever been on the receiving end of something like that? If not you probably don't know how awful it feels.

But fair enough.


18 Jul 2012 - 20:1387890
You know, I just want to point out *who* made that comment. Simon Pegg is a comedian. I doubt he actually meant it in anything more than a poke fun thing.

Also, it would be better if sexual harassment didn't exist in any form, but some people won't class comments like that *as* sexual harassment - I don't think people really think about how that person may feel about a comment like that, as it's all depends on individual opinions.

Doesn't mean it's okay, doesn't mean it's nice, but I think for people to go "I'm never gonna do that because of those comments" is a bit much, as, yeah, you may get comments like that but you'll also get people who really love the outfit by itself.

It's kinda hard to say "you shouldn't say things like that!" when someone is in a costume which was specifically design to have a huge amounts of sex appeal.

Guys and girls have different opinions about it. Whilst (most) girls won't loudly go "Mmmmm, look at that chest" if they see a guy topless, they're still objectifying men. I think men just view it that it's something that happens, they don't seem to mind (from what I've seen) those comments directed at them, so that's why they don't really think about making them themselves about women. It just happens.

And we're also talking about conventions with animes involved with excessive panty shots and jiggling boobs. And then comics? Yeah, majority of women in them don't seem to be able to afford a lot of fabric for clothes.


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18 Jul 2012 - 20:4387892
Quote NixieThePixie:
You know, I just want to point out *who* made that comment. Simon Pegg is a comedian. I doubt he actually meant it in anything more than a poke fun thing.

Also, it would be better if sexual harassment didn't exist in any form, but some people won't class comments like that *as* sexual harassment - I don't think people really think about how that person may feel about a comment like that, as it's all depends on individual opinions.


I wouldn't have classed the comments alone as sexual harassment- I was more talking about behaviour at cons when I brought that up. I still think it could be legitimate grounds for making someone uncomfortable though.

I'd also argue that its a bit of a fallacy to say that something isn't offensive because it was intended to be funny.

Possibly it is true that the girls in question were asking for that sort of attention. There's an argument to be made that this is due to external pressures/ expectations, although maybe going in to that would be going off the main topic.


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18 Jul 2012 - 21:2787895
I think it's a bit foolish to think that:

"men don't get it as bad as women"

Now I'm only going to base this next comment ONLY on the UK convention scene and cosplay in the UK. So for the love of whatever Deity READ that and actually understand that this is an opinion based on what I see at UK anime conventions. I have not been to conventions ANYWHERE ELSE and am in no position to comment on the entire world.

Every UK con I've been to I've noticed a running theme and it's this:

Sexy guy who fits into "bishi" category strolls on by in his cosplay of a popular pretty boy character.

Unbeknownst to him there is a very large group of girls nearby,they see him, one of them screams "BISHI!" and they all run at him screaming.

I've never seen this the other way round, not men running and screaming at a female cosplayer showing a lot of skin or a beautiful girl cosplaying. Again IN THE UK.

WHY is it apparently OK for females to behave in this way towards men and it's not OK for men to even suggest that a girl is attractive and he really likes women in costume?

Why is it OK for a woman to rant and rave about how hot and sexy a male is but if a man does it, he is instantly sexist?

It does go both ways, more than you think and I honestly think that in the UK cosplay scene it's actually the Males who get objectified far more than the females.

How many girls do you see running around conventions with yaoi paddles screaming about boys diddling each other?

Not that liking yaoi instantly makes you that type of person, it doesn't, I'm talking about a general majority. I know there are people who like yaoi who don't run around screaming.

Also just to say, I'm not branding every female who cosplays or attends UK cons as a person who objectifies men or acts in the way I've mentioned here. What I am saying here is what I have seen myself, there ARE people who behave this way who are female and by that token there ARE people who don't. I understand that and I'm not calling YOU anything.

Also what if a girl said that about other girls? does that make her sexist? and the same goes for men saying it about other men.

Sexsism is not exclusive to men directing it at women or women directing it at men. Women can be sexist against men OR women and men can be sexist towards women OR men. Or both of course.

It also has a lot to do with how each individual views it.


18 Jul 2012 - 22:1087896
@ Lulu: I agree with you completely! I think it's not really fair to say one sex gets it out-and-out worse than the other. Undeniably we might get it worse in different ways, you might expect to get certain types of comments or (let's call it) abuse. But I think just like everything it has to be put into context.

As someone mentioned, bear in mind who Simon Pegg is. A very large part of his career revolves around comedy roles or series, and almost every comedian knows that it's a very good way to make yourself unpopular by saying "Aren't these guys a bunch of losers?"

Honestly, I think I can understand his post. I know I can kinda be similar myself because I deliberately act like an animal in front of my gal pals when it comes to other women, but they all know that actually I'm pretty decent and respect women a lot. Now I'm just a normal person, someone who's known internationally as a comedian you'd kinda hope people would take posts like that with a pinch of salt.

I think it does go both ways, though. If you're going to dress in skimpy clothes, you have to kind of expect a few comments. Whether you're a guy or a girl, and people can do it in a jokey way. I'm not particularly bothered or embarrassed if people tell me I have a nice butt. (Which I do have, for the record.) However I don't think it's right when people are judged on appearance alone, rather than the quality of their cosplay. Show some love for us ugly people, people!


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18 Jul 2012 - 22:2187898
Quote Lulu Rose:
I think it's a bit foolish to think that:

"men don't get it as bad as women"

Now I'm only going to base this next comment ONLY on the UK convention scene and cosplay in the UK. So for the love of whatever Deity READ that and actually understand that this is an opinion based on what I see at UK anime conventions. I have not been to conventions ANYWHERE ELSE and am in no position to comment on the entire world.

Every UK con I've been to I've noticed a running theme and it's this:

Sexy guy who fits into "bishi" category strolls on by in his cosplay of a popular pretty boy character.

Unbeknownst to him there is a very large group of girls nearby,they see him, one of them screams "BISHI!" and they all run at him screaming.

I've never seen this the other way round, not men running and screaming at a female cosplayer showing a lot of skin or a beautiful girl cosplaying. Again IN THE UK.

WHY is it apparently OK for females to behave in this way towards men and it's not OK for men to even suggest that a girl is attractive and he really likes women in costume?

Why is it OK for a woman to rant and rave about how hot and sexy a male is but if a man does it, he is instantly sexist?

It does go both ways, more than you think and I honestly think that in the UK cosplay scene it's actually the Males who get objectified far more than the females.

How many girls do you see running around conventions with yaoi paddles screaming about boys diddling each other?

Not that liking yaoi instantly makes you that type of person, it doesn't, I'm talking about a general majority. I know there are people who like yaoi who don't run around screaming.

Also just to say, I'm not branding every female who cosplays or attends UK cons as a person who objectifies men or acts in the way I've mentioned here. What I am saying here is what I have seen myself, there ARE people who behave this way who are female and by that token there ARE people who don't. I understand that and I'm not calling YOU anything.

Also what if a girl said that about other girls? does that make her sexist? and the same goes for men saying it about other men.

Sexsism is not exclusive to men directing it at women or women directing it at men. Women can be sexist against men OR women and men can be sexist towards women OR men. Or both of course.

It also has a lot to do with how each individual views it.


At all of the conventions I have been to, which I'll admit is not a lot, I haven't seen any such offensive behaviour to men.

Of course it's not okay to act that way towards anyone. Personally, the worst I've seen is 13 year-old girls screeching at other cross-playing 13 year-old girls.

Men may not run and scream but instead can make snide/inappropiate comments and take pervy photos. I've seen much more than that, personally, but of course neither is okay.

Personally I think girls are less likely to objectify guys - fangirls, from the few examples I've seen, run and scream because they LOVE that character, whereas from what I've seen, quite a few (not a majority, but a fair amount of) guys don't care about the character as opposed to the figure of the cosplayer. Which is pretty sad, when someone's put effort into the costume. This is only based on my experiences as a cosplayer.

I've never seen women or girls rant and rave about attractive men at cons besides "what an awesome cosplayer!" Certainly not compared to some of the ways dudes have acted at cons that I've observed.

Never, ever seen a man objectified at a UK con. Not once. However I have seen ass-gropes when a Black Cat poses for a photo. This is just coming from what I have seen personally.

"Sexsism is not exclusive to men directing it at women or women directing it at men. Women can be sexist against men OR women and men can be sexist towards women OR men. Or both of course."

As far as I'm aware, sexism, much like racism, is usually defined as gender-based discrimination from a position of power/privilege. Men have that privilege and whilst misogynistic actions/a misogynistic society can have negative effects on men, you cannot be sexist towards a man because as a man he has privilege over women in general; higher wages, more of a chance of getting hired, far less threat of sexual harassment in general society. Such as, a person of colour cannot be racist towards a white person as that white person benefits from centuries of privilege and power. Your comment also completely erased those of non-binary genders and trans* people, but that's a whole different can of worms.

But I agree with your comments about the way you have seen girls act. It's not okay. I however have seen far more examples of possibly more serious - as in able-to-press-charges-for-sexual-harassment - sexism towards women at cons, and in general, society is sexist and women are not seen as equal, and so therefore the attitudes at cons. I have to think women have it worse. Sorry.



Last edited by quixoticschlemiel (18 Jul 2012 - 22:52)
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