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04 Aug 2010 - 22:4137933
WTF???? there taking manga offline???
Anyone elce having proplems reading there fave mangas online?????

An international coalition of Japanese and American-based manga publishers have joined together to combat what they call the “rampant and growing problem” of scanlations, the practice of posting scanned and translated editions of Japanese comics online without permission of the copyright holders. The group is threatening legal action against 30 scanlation sites.

The effort brings together the 36 member Japanese Digital Comic Association—which includes such major Japanese houses as Kodansha, Shogakukan and Shueisha—as well as manga publisher Square Enix, the Tuttle-Mori Agency and U.S.-based manga publishers Vertical Inc, Viz Media, Tokyopop and Yen Press, the manga/graphic novel imprint of the Hachette Book Group.

A spokesperson for the coalition said the effort shows that Japanese publishers—who license the majority of manga sold in the U.S.—are taking an aggressive interest in combating manga piracy outside of Japan as well as inside the country. The group charges that the former fan-driven practice of scanlating—begun in the 1970s to scan, translate and post manga online when it was difficult to find manga outside of Japan—has been transformed by “scanlation aggregators,” heavily trafficked, for-profit Web sites that host thousands of pirated manga editions and offer them for free to readers.

According to a spokesperson, these sites are among the most heavily trafficked sites on the web attracting millions of visits each month while earning advertising revenues and even soliciting donations and sometimes charging for memberships. The group also charges that pirated manga is now beginning to turn up on smartphones and other wireless devices through the use of apps developed “solely to link to and republish the content of scanlations sites.”

A spokesperson said that “we are left with no other alternative but to take aggressive action. It is our sincere hope that offending sites will take it upon themselves to immediately cease their activities. Where this is not the case, however, we will seek injunctive relief and statutory damages.” The group is also aggressively reporting violations to the “federal authorities, including the anti-piracy units of the Justice Department, local law enforcement agencies and FBI.” While the group has yet to file any lawsuits and has declined to name specific scanlators, sites such as MangaFox and OneManga have long been identified as major scanlation aggregators.

After several years of booming manga sales in the U.S. that drove the popularity of comics and graphic novels in the traditional book market, sales of manga in the U.S. have declined more than 30% from a high of $210 million in 2007 to $140 million in sales in 2009, according to pop culture news site ICv2.com. Many manga publishers and retailers who used to believe that scanlations actually attracted new readers, now blame the sales decline on the rise of giant for-profit scanlation sites that have allowed a new generation of fans to grow up reading manga for free online.

“Go back 2 years and track these sites and you’ll find an inverse relationship between the rise of traffic on these scanlation sites and the decline in U.S. manga sales,” said Kurt Hassler, publishing director of Yen Press and a former graphic novel and manga buyer for Borders Books and Music. Hassler points out that early fan-driven scanlation sites were aimed at making manga available overseas at a time when English translations of manga were rare. Indeed these fan scanlators would remove their online translations when the books were licensed for the English-language market.

That’s no longer the case, said Hassler. “These sites are run as businesses and include direct scans of licensed English-language manga editions. Some even include our copyright notices. We don’t want to have to do this but publishers are now focused on this problem.”


they have taken down a whole list of mangas from the web inc Naruto, bleach, blood the last vampire, d-grey man, death note, to name but a few.
anyone elce pissed at this???? for one like to read mangas online and if i like them i will go out and buy them if i dont i wont.


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04 Aug 2010 - 23:0637935
Drop in sales? Have they thought that this may be more to do with the recession and the lack of fans expendable income? Fans have always found ways to circulate translated manga. This is just a way for the companies to scrape back their profit margins!


04 Aug 2010 - 23:1437936
This shouldn't come as a surprise to be quite blunt, given similar happened to fansubs - why do you think conventions no longer show fansubbed episodes?

Their main beef appears to be with the charge for sites, or the ones that keep up every scanlated chapter from 1 to current. They also mention uploaded official translations, which is an outright breach of copyright law.

Once its been licensed in the english language, the general consensus/agreement (and why the scanlators have been mostly left alone until now) was that they'd stop doing a series or only leave up the most recent couple of chapters if its a long runner like Naruto or One Piece.

Most of the type of sites theyre mentioning also happen to keep scanlators work up which the groups doing the scanlations have specifically asked be taken down after so many weeks too.

Blame the companies and corporations all you like, but the rise of library type sites owned and operated by people out for a profit that contain every chapter of every licensed or non-licensed series scanlated, and users who share similar opinions with yourself about access to manga are the root cause of this reaction - Keep in mind at the end of the day you're taking people's work for free, and the owners of the bigger sites are cashing in on things they've contributed nothing towards.

Basically - read the news you're quoting properly first. They're not actually being as massively unreasonable as people all over the net are trying to make them appear to be.



Last edited by Junta (04 Aug 2010 - 23:19)
04 Aug 2010 - 23:2837937
It depends a bit from my personal experience!!! I have never read manga online because I dunno, I like reading in person and if I can have a material copy I will try and pick it up. I can't really do the same for DVDs because there isnt places near me that sells anime DVDs but there is a Manga shop near me.

as for anime...I almost always watch it for free (unless I spontaniously buy a DVD of a series i havent seen), but if its on crunchyroll I will watch it there before anything else, even tho I have a free account and it doesn't make much difference from downloading it illegally I like to think that I am at least showing that I will watch stuff legally if I can.

removing scanlations is silly tho! it's the same with anime in that if it is fansubbed then its generally not available over here on DVD or in pages and generally I will continue to download series until we get an official DVD release to buy. Burned blank DVDs just don't do it for me, I want something that looks nice on my shelf! but i will make do until I can get it.


04 Aug 2010 - 23:3437938
Yeah I'm a bit annoyed, but what can you do?

Really you shouldn't be reading scanlations anyway, you should be purchasing the manga yourself to support the artist and the company that provide it to you.

I'm not that effected by this to be honest as I don't read much manga online, I generally prefer reading it in book-form as a) it supports the artist; and b) I don't like reading off the computer screen.
(This is probably why I am always so behind with the latest manga as I'm always waiting for it to be translated into English XD)
Only manga I do read online is when I'm being an eager beaver and want to read it straight away rather than waiting for it to come out in English. Or when the manga is out of print.

Yes I know people will say that they can't afford it... If that's the case then learn to budget better? Or make a plan of your spending money so that you know when and how much you can spend at a time. You'll find some way to get some money for your manga spending surely.
And for those who like to read the manga online before purchasing, then going out to find the volumes and doing a quick flick through should feel the same way.


05 Aug 2010 - 00:0737944
What exactly is the problem here? You've said that if you like what you see online you buy it and if you don't like it you don't buy it. So surely once you've bought it the fact that it isn't online shouldn't be an issue to you?

I personally read a lot of scanlated yaoi manga online. Those that are released in English and I've enjoyed I endeavour to buy. If they take down manga that have been released I see no issue in that. I have the same feelings about anime. For example, I watched fansubbed episodes of Ouran, but the moment it was released I bought the DVD's. Why? Because if I don't, the people who made the series won't be able to afford to make more. It's about generating future work, as well as what is the current work.

It seems what you're complaining about is no longer getting to read things for free. This to me is ridiculous. You're basically stealing from these people, as are many of the sites that provide the scanlations. It'd be like someone baking a gorgeous wedding cake and then you refusing to even pay for the ingredients. (A crude analogy maybe, but it gets the point across.)

I don't see anything wrong with looking at something for free and then saying, that was awesome, I'm gonna buy that. But to expect to have it there for free constantly is a bit arrogant. I mean, come on. How would you like to not be paid for whatever it is you do? I know I would hate it.


05 Aug 2010 - 00:2337945
Why is it wrong for people to protect their IPs from pirated use?


05 Aug 2010 - 00:5037946
Quote Shenny:
Why is it wrong for people to protect their IPs from pirated use?


just to clarify or some massive assumption, does IP stand for intellectual property here?


05 Aug 2010 - 08:4537951
Quote Ninodog:
just to clarify or some massive assumption, does IP stand for intellectual property here?


I belive so in this case, yes.

Im kinda somewhere in the middle with this, as Ive used sites for a while now.

Ive been using places like one manga in order to keep up with the story of big manga series, such as Naruto and One Piece, with how far ahead they are, compared to the manga books.
Its also been a great way to get into a new series, or in many cases, its let us see an obscure series that may not make its way out of japan (Such as a Gurren Lagann spin-off, turning the story into a high-school comedy)

I do agree with some of the issues raised though.
Until now, there was nothing to stop a site hosting every single available chapter of a manga, new or old, letting people read through an entire series without having to pick up a single book.
I'll admit ive done this myself, after reading a few late chapters in the Bleach series, (Around the time Nel first appeared) I saw that one manga had the whole series available, so I have read it online, from the start to its current place.

There have been a number of series where ive been able to do this, despite them having a huge number of books already out in english, but at least if I have enjoyed a series, I will then pick up the books, buts theres nothing to really stop people from just making a copy of an online scan for themselves.

Plus, as it was mentioned, there have been a number of times, when people have just scanned a copy of the actual manga, and tried to pass it off as a scan-lation, which as Junta said, is breaching the copyright laws.

I think its a shame that we'll be loosing out on so many sites for scans, as it will make it harder to look for a new series outside of scanning through the shop shelves in hopes of finding something that wasnt there before...


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Netherworld Chronicles - Initinal planning finished, writing first draft.
Urban Warfare - Researching and planning

Last edited by MattDark (09 Aug 2010 - 10:02)
05 Aug 2010 - 09:1237954
well the stuff is copyright, so they have every right to take it down.
Yeah its convinient not to have buy the actual books, but its just the same as pirating films and music really..


05 Aug 2010 - 09:2937956
i now that ppl are thinking that im annoyed because i cant read them for free, i have never used these sites to read a whole manga, only a few chapters to see if the manga catches my interest and then i will save for months to get one or two of the mangas at a time. (VERY tight for money takes me ages to save).
also i live in the middle of nowhere with one close bookstore that sells any manga at all (and thats only a couple of books) the only way i can get any decent manga is online and it costs lots most of the time to ship.


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05 Aug 2010 - 11:0237961
You really DID come across as complaining because you couldn't get it for free anymore and to be honest I agree with the majority here.

Sure, it's a pain that people likley wont be able to read the latest chapters of Naruto and Bleach and similar long running ones that arent up to date in english on our shelves over here. Thats just it though.

If thats ALL that was available online, as in, only the last few current chapters then I doubt this would have happened.

It's all thanks to the greedy websites which stockpile scanlation groups hard work that they themselves have taken down when asked and when it was legaly required. Those stockpile sites like "stop tazmo" and such are to blame. Like Junta said, the original scanlation groups ask them to take them down because it'll cause a problem, they dont, some even charge money to read more than 1 chapter a day. Here we go! a problem has come of it.

Look at the anime industry, it's exactly the same. Music, film, comic, practically every media industry is similar in how they treat it.

It really isn't them just being dicks, there are real legitimate reasons as to why they want it to stop. Just like when UK conventions had to stop showing fan subbed stuff. It wasn't the committee being dicks, they were forced to do it BY LAW!


05 Aug 2010 - 12:3437971
It's worth noting that libraries now stock the first few volumes of various manga series for your browsing pleasure. It's perfectly legal and there for the purpose of a test run. Alternatively you can flick through the first volume in the book shop (cheeky, but allowed).

I believe Square Enix and some other publishing sites are hosting legal manga previews too, so they're catching on to us wanting a taster of some kind before shelling out for whole volumes. Things should improve from here on.

Your world is not over, just requires more effort.


05 Aug 2010 - 12:5837974
I am still go by my own morals to be honest, I don't read manga like Naruto and Bleach but I never read ahead on manga that has an english version because I know that it will come out soon but I don't think it is right to scan a whole bunch of Tokyopop titles and put them online.

However there are some manga which have been out for years in Japan and have never made it outside of Japan, I'll continue to read these online until I see an english ver (because the translation is likely to be better quality).

Yes the scanlations are technically breaching copyright but then so is doujinshi, yet comiket is one of the biggest anime conventions in japan and is dedicated almost entirely to doujinshi and other fan based works. However almost studio understands the benefits of it and how good doujinshi can boost merchandise sales.

Same with wonfes, which is another huge convention dedicated to the selling of garage kits (which are fanmade figures basically) they boost sales. wonfes has been going since 1984 and comiket since 1975. if they were hurting the industry they would have been shut down a long time ago.

does anyone know what perfect dark is? It's a japanese P2P program similar to limewire and kazaa. You will find that many studios will turn a blind eye on episodes of currently airing series being shared on it up until about 2 weeks after they have finished airing because different wards of Tokyo get different TV stations (this is beginning to change as more people get extended antennae and go digital).

This means that some series may not air in a particular area for anything up to the next few months. I have a friend in Japan who I talk to about anime and many times I have seen 2-3 episodes before he has because they haven't broadcasted in his area yet, this can be longer or shorter depending on where you live but you will find most people in Japan are not willing to wait up to a month and will go to various places to watch anime especially. When the 2nd series of haruhi first broadcast there were cases of fans that live outside of Tokyo booking flights and hotels o so that they could watch it in Tokyo as it aired.

I really digressed a lot there ^^;; but what I'm saying is: by all means if it is licensed over here you should stop people from sharing it but most studios know that anime unavailable over here and in america will get fansubbed and will boost the sales of merchandise.


05 Aug 2010 - 13:1837978
Theres a flaw when you mention Doujin and Garage Kits.

Unlike scanning a manga and posting it online, which is directly copying the original material. Stuff like doujin are original works based on manga and such.

It's like if you draw fan-art or write a fan-fic of your favourite series, the only differance being that these are generally proffesional works, that are able to make money.

Doujin and the like arent going to harm manga sales in the way scans can, because of the fact they arent making a copy of the original manga scans and posting them for anyone to see for free.


__________________
Current projects:
My Almost Perfect Life - Written out story draft, converting into script.
Netherworld Chronicles - Initinal planning finished, writing first draft.
Urban Warfare - Researching and planning
05 Aug 2010 - 13:3937979
Quote MattDark:
Theres a flaw when you mention Doujin and Garage Kits.

Unlike scanning a manga and posting it online, which is directly copying the original material. Stuff like doujin are original works based on manga and such.

It's like if you draw fan-art or write a fan-fic of your favourite series, the only differance being that these are generally proffesional works, that are able to make money.

Doujin and the like arent going to harm manga sales in the way scans can, because of the fact they arent making a copy of the original manga scans and posting them for anyone to see for free.


Yes I suppose this is right ^^

But I still think that there are more advantages to turning a blind eye to unlicensed anime and manga on the internet (unlicensed as in, not available over here) because at the end of the day, you can't stop pirating it will ALWAYS happen in one form or another, people that aren't willing to pay for a manga will not suddenly go out and buy one just cos their outlet has been shut down, they will just find another place to get it. They aren't losing a potential customer.

But for the rest of us I think it would be foolish to overlook the fact that fansubs and scanlations that aren't rips of already translated material do more good than bad.

I used to spend over £100 a month on figures, posters and loads of other stuff from hobbylink japan and yahoo japan auction from series that had no english DVD or manga release over here and in excess of £300 at expo twice a year. The only reason I spent that kind of money is because I'd watched fansubs of the anime online and the moment it came out on english DVD I would be one of the first people to buy it, even right now I'm sat here with 3 big CD wallets full of burned DVDs with fansubbed anime on it and the moment there is an official DVD release is the moment I get rid of a burned DVD and buy the offical one.

in fact I would say a good 80% of the western interest in anime and western spending on anime merchandise and manga comes down to watching fansubs online.

Maybe some people have moved on from that, but realistically most of us start watching streaming fansubbed episodes on the internet not from reading reviews on amazon and watching trailers.

Like I said, you can't stop it, but if you realistically did you would see the interest in anime and manga go back underground again, MCM expo and anime conventions would see a decrease in ticket sales, the number of cosplayers and so on would go down.



Last edited by (05 Aug 2010 - 13:40)
05 Aug 2010 - 13:5937981
Increasing amounts of libraries are stocking manga and anime.
There's another way to read manga for free! It's unlikely that those big scary companies are gonna tell off the libraries.


05 Aug 2010 - 14:0737982
Quote ArcherPlusle:
Increasing amounts of libraries are stocking manga and anime.
There's another way to read manga for free! It's unlikely that those big scary companies are gonna tell off the libraries.


I agree totally! What I'm saying is that if anime or manga has an official english version/DVD then buy it or watch it for free in a legal way but don't download it illegally online. However, for manga or anime that has no english release I don't see the ethical problem with watching fansubs or reading scanlations until an english version is released.


05 Aug 2010 - 15:3137991
The problems with most manga publishers are:

-manga is released too slowly (e.g. Bakuman came out in Japan August 2008, we're only just getting volume 1 now in August 2010)

-manga is too expensive (e.g. £6.99 for your average manga in the UK, where in Japan most volumes will cost you about ¥500, which is only £3.70)

-many popular series haven't been licensed or translated by English companies (to name a few JUMP series: Psyren, Beelzebub, Majin Tantei Nougami Neuro, etc)

-many series run on for so long it's impractical to collect them- for example, One Piece is currently at 59 volumes, which if you were to buy at UK prices would run you over £400 and would take up a LOT of space- Naruto is close at 52 volumes and Bleach at 46 volumes. In Japan, most kids will buy Shonen Jump when it comes out once a week (usually priced around ¥300) which is printed on cheap, recyclable paper that is then thrown out after it's been read.

-manga doesn't hold its value- you'll be lucky if you can sell your mint condition issues for £2 or £3 when you decide that you need more room on your shelf, grow bored of rereading series or just decide you're growing up and don't want your house filled with comic books about ninjas and samurais anymore

-beautiful colour pages are lost- I have seen a select few manga publishers actually put the effort into including glossy colour pages when a series has had a colour page- but most of the time, you'll just get an inky black, image that looks like it's been photocopied badly.


Scanlators:

-release manga near instantly (sometimes we even get scanlations before the manga is released in Japan)

-release manga for free- obviously this isn't fair to publishers, HOWEVER there are many series I would have never started reading had it not been for Scanlations, and now these companies are benefiting from me buying their merchandise and even sometimes buying the Japanese volumes of their manga

-release series that have been overlooked by publishing companies- pretty much all series from the mainstream tankubons are all translated- publishing companies will only look for what will profit them the most and cherry pick series

-you don't have to clutter your room with piles of books

-scanlators usually include colour pages


What would be ideal is if companies like VIZ, Tokyopop, etc and such released a pay-monthly service where you could read instantly scanlated issues of JUMP, GANGAN, RIBON etc. I would happily pay for this service- however because one doesn't exist, I have to resort to reading scanlations to keep up on current series in Japan.



Last edited by Yuka (05 Aug 2010 - 15:33)
05 Aug 2010 - 17:4138003
Quote Yuka:

-manga is too expensive (e.g. £6.99 for your average manga in the UK, where in Japan most volumes will cost you about ¥500, which is only £3.70)


The higher price is due to the English publishers having to buy the rights to the book, translate and then re-print it with the English words. All these things have to paid for and sadly the costs are passed onto the consumer. Unfair, but that's how it is.

Quote Yuka:

-manga doesn't hold its value- you'll be lucky if you can sell your mint condition issues for £2 or £3 when you decide that you need more room on your shelf, grow bored of rereading series or just decide you're growing up and don't want your house filled with comic books about ninjas and samurais anymore


To me this isn't a big issue unless you're massively concerned about sell-on value. I mean, movies, games and books don't really hold their value either...

Quote Yuka:

-release manga for free- obviously this isn't fair to publishers, HOWEVER there are many series I would have never started reading had it not been for Scanlations, and now these companies are benefiting from me buying their merchandise and even sometimes buying the Japanese volumes of their manga


It's not fair to the publishers but it's also not fair to the mangaka who created the work. Creative professionals (i.e. writers and artists) get paid a pittence for their work (I know this for a fact - the tutors on my course are all published writers yet many have second and/or third jobs). So effectively, scanlations aren't just robbing the publishers, they're robbing the creator of the work.

Quote Yuka:

What would be ideal is if companies like VIZ, Tokyopop, etc and such released a pay-monthly service where you could read instantly scanlated issues of JUMP, GANGAN, RIBON etc. I would happily pay for this service- however because one doesn't exist, I have to resort to reading scanlations to keep up on current series in Japan.


Something like this is a brilliant idea because the creator of the work can still earn from their work (and thus continue to create more - which is great news for the fans).

This is an issue I feel quite strongly about, since if I become a published author I would like to be credited and paid for my work. At the moment it feels that the scanlators that are at the centre of this debate (i.e. the ones making money from it and refusing to take down old scanlations that have been released in book form) are cheating everyone out of what should be a fun read for the fans and a career for the creator.



Last edited by perfectly_purple (05 Aug 2010 - 17:42) Reason: Unfinished sentence due to trigger happy fingers
05 Aug 2010 - 17:4738004
Yuka pretty much summed it up here.
These publishers are taking down these sites because of their apparent loss of revenue. At the same time they want you to go for their slower poorer quality service.
I read the last chapter of Hellsing ages ago, like if my memory serves right, over a year ago. And supposedly the last volume has JUST been translated very revently. And Dark Horse don't do their manga cheap either for some unbeknownst reason. I still buy manga series I like, mainly as I like having a paper copy infront of me to read, and no one scanlates Excel Saga anyway.
The anime industry has a similar problem. Few are actually buying anime nowadays. Some fansubbed series never make it to the west, and be damned if they get a UK release. So if I were given a choice between waiting 2 years for a series to get a dub I won't listen to and then have to import it and be limited to what I can play the DVD on because of region encoding, or simply going on Bakaupdates and getting the latest episode a couple days after Japanese release... you get the idea.

I've yet to see western releases of some good series such as Kuroshitsuji for instance. Or in some cases if I relied on western distributors I'd probably never see a series I love at all. Umineko No Naku Koro Ni for instance. It sold badly in Japan, doubt it will get a western release ever. So would never have heard of the series, played the visual novels, and certainly wouldn't have seen the manga.

It's easy to pull out the iron fist of copyright law and blame the consumer, but this is a problem of an antiquated industry. It's losing money (much like the music industry) because it's failing to come into this century. It needs to update and offer legitimate, and affordable pay to download services as fast as any fansubber/scanlator can do it. To as much of the varying tastes of the anime audience as possible. And it would be worth the spend. As at least you know you would be getting a quality translation.


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05 Aug 2010 - 18:3238006
Can't say I'm having any trouble finding anything yet but I'm not surprised. There was a pretty big raid on some video linking sites a month or so ago and they didn't even host any content; 9 sites in total, and they raided the homes of the forum/site owners as well as the server locations. Oh well, if piracy is going to die, it was good while it lasted but I doubt it will - there are too many of us....


oh yeah, forgot to mention that market research (some anyway) has shown that piracy increases sales as people are more willing to buy something they know they'll like.


__________________

Last edited by Woodstock (05 Aug 2010 - 18:34)
05 Aug 2010 - 19:5138013
nearly all of the manga i own i first read on-line, if there was a pay monthly service where u could download manga i would pay for it... (so long as it wasnt a fortune per month lol)
i can see where the publishers are comeing from, but i also agree with others, there are some mangas u cant get in the west and as i cant read japanese there is no way i would pay for one that wasnt translated.
also if there cracking down on manga how long till they crack down on fansubs of anime???? i think they have for some sites but not all. (most of thes fansub sites have a monthly price to download)


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Oh i am ninja, he is ninja, we are ninja to.
05 Aug 2010 - 20:1438021
I'm more of a grey area kinda guy - just stream everything. Like I said, streaming sites for manga haven't been that bad but there have been pirate scares for a while now - think it was '08 or maybe '09 where the Japanese gov. was fining individuals huge amounts for illegal downloads. Lots of people freaked but nothing really came of it..... we'll see though.


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05 Aug 2010 - 20:5938028
ignore me . . . i shouldn't read when i'm tired and grumpy



Last edited by agi (05 Aug 2010 - 21:01) Reason: reading comprehension mis-fire
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